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Remembered Today:

The fate of Zeppelin L50


Guest Ian Bowbrick

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

L50 took part in the 'Silent Raid' on England in October 1917. On her return journey the course she took seems to have been rather haphazard and she landed East of Langres on what was then our side of the lines. Some of her crew disembarked at this point - what became of them?

She then drifted south over France crossing the coast near St Raphael - what became of her in the skies over the Med?

Ian

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Ian, I have a list of what happened to each Zeppelin and for the L50 it says:

Drifted at more than 500 metres and later collided with mountain near Dammartin (France), losing two gondolas with 16 crew. 4 crew in hull disappeared with ship over mediterranean.

This seems to be suggesting that the L50 just came down in the Med and sank without trace.

Tom

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After losing engines over the North Sea and over England, L50 was carried over France, and actually crossed the lines into German-held territory before drifting back over the French lines. The Captain, Kapitanleutnant Roderich Schwonder, tried to dive her into the ground at Dammartin, but the approach was too shallow and only the control car and gondolas were torn off. The sixteen crew who survived were in the parts that were torn off. Two other crew were probably killed in the impact, while another two were still on board, but perhaps incapacitated.

The wreck climbed to some 23000 feet, where it was above the ceiling of French interceptors, and then drifted over the Mediterranean at nightfall, never to be seen again.

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Guest Pete Wood

I can add a bit more to the story. The L50, commanded by Kapitanleutnant Roderich Schwonder, had a rough journey - when taking part in the 'Silent Raid.' Most of the crew were suffering from altitude sickness (lack of oxygen) and, because of this, some of the engineers did not perform their maintenance tasks. This led to the failure of one engine, when flying to England. On the way home, another engine failed over the north sea. The radio was also "rendered useless" according to Schwonder in a report (that was smuggled out of the PoW camp).

Schwonder was completely lost and when he got to Tonnerre (some 125 miles inside French territory, from the front line) he decended to 800 feet to try and pick up local landmarks, thinking he was over Holland. Schwonder saw a sign which said 'Cafe du Centre' and realised he was in France - and very short of fuel. He headed east and, by coincidence, saw the intact but downed sister ship L49 (forced to land after being holed by machine gun bullets from some French Nieuport aeroplanes) at Bourbonne-les-Bains.

Schwonder saw that the French planes were taking off to chase the L50, so he climbed rapidly to 6500 feet. But the remaining engines would not allow the L50 to make any headway against a strong wind. Schwonder reported, after the war, that he then decided to deliberately destroy the L50 by driving her into the ground vertically to smash the ship, "like an accordian." Witnesses say that the L50 crashed at high speed, but horizontally. The control car (cabin) was ripped off and many crew jumped from the engine gondolas. With so much less weight, the airship shot up into the air, with the crew trying to set fire to the ship by firing Very pistols at it.

As Tom says, 16 crew were alive and taken prisoner. Two of the remaining crew, carried off, probably died in the initial impact as their gondola was completely smashed against a tree. The two other crew (in the top platform) had been the most badly affected with altitude sickness and were unable to vent the gas to bring the L50 down and save themselves.

Another Zeppelin, L45 had also crash landed - in the bed of the river Bueche, near Sisteron. The crew successfully sabotaged the ship by setting fire to it. As they were being marched away into captivity, they saw the L50 drifting out of control above them.

The L50 rose to 23,000 feet which was 3000 feet too high for the French planes to shoot it down. She was last seen over Frejus (is that near St Raphael??) heading out to sea.

Years later some fishermen claimed to have seen the L50 come down in the Med, around 100 miles South East of Frejus, but there were no survivors.

The L49 was copied by the allies and used as the blueprint for the US airship Shenandoah.

Most of this info is from the Zepp bible, The Zeppelin in Combat by Douglas Robinson.

I have a list of the L50's crew if you need it.

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Many thanks all.

List of the crew not needed - Many thanks anyway.

I wasn't sure whether L50 floated out to the Med unmanned or not - I got the impression that she was. However it would appear to be fair to say that she was not flown under manned control.

Cheers - Ian

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Guest Pete Wood

Here is a pic of the L50, outside the Alrun shed in Ahlhorn. Note the water (ballast) being unloaded at the rear of the ship (by the entrance to the shed).

This was the 'new' dark colour scheme used to confuse the searchlight crews.

post-3-1065694006.jpg

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Thanks - Racing T-Pots. It looks like I know where to come to with my Zep questions!

If I might ask further, I have alsways been surprised by the number of attacks Zeppelins could sustain and continue to fly. Being of the knowledge that hydrogen was extremely flammable, I thought that they were more flimsey. How come then that Leefe Robinson was able to bring down SL11, wheras L50 was attacked by several groups of planes and continued to fly on?

Is it soemthing to do with SL11's wooden structure or was Leefe Robinson using tracer ammunition and the others not?

Thanks - Ian

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Guest Pete Wood

It's all about luck, I believe. There are many reports of pilots sticking two and three drums of ammo into a Zeppelin and watching it fly away.

Pilots found that tracer/Pomeroy was the best ammunition. But it didn't always ignite the gas (I don't know why!!), and you're right that not all aeroplanes were armed with tracer.

Some Zeppelins were brought down by pilots actually climbing above an airship and then dropping bombs on them!!

A few were brought down as a result of anti-aicraft fire; a few large holes quickly venting the gas and making the ship heavy.

The airships were also probe to 'self-igniting' where a static charge built up. The electrical charge, nicknamed St Elmo's Fire, could actually be seen by the crew, and they had to take all sorts of precuations (like rubber footware) to prevent it happening.

But the best way to bring down a Zeppelin, using bullets of any kind, was to concentrate all the shots into one area.

It's a sad fact that, for a Zepp crewman, this was one of the most hazardous jobs in the war. In an effort to avoid enemy aeroplanes, the airships had to fly higher, where the oxygen was thin and many crew were unconscious for hours at a time. The temperature at 20,000 feet plus, is unthinkable, and frost bite was common. Yet they were nearly all volunteers. Statistically, your chances of surviving were worse than the crew of U-boats, and something the size of a Zeppelin is much more difficult to hide or disguise....

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

OK. So taking Leefe Robinson's victory, what were his tactics - offload into one area?

I believe he was flying a BE2c (39 Sqd) and I am unsure of its armament (Lewis gun on the top wing like a Nieuport? or the observer firing a Lewis mounted in fron of the pilot and firing backwards and up at the target?) - I was under the impression the BE2s were two seater unarmed recon aircraft.

Cheers - Ian

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Guest Pete Wood

Most of the BE2s were two seaters, and Leefe Robinson's BE2c ((2693) was certainly a two seater. But no observer was carried, to allow the aeroplane to climb faster and higher - as it was lighter.

The Brock ammunition was still being trialled, having been issued as experimental only a month previously.

No one had found a defintive method of shooting down a Zeppelin. In fact the bombing from above method was the one being taught at the CFS. But pilots like Robinson were convinced of its merit.

On the night of the 2/3 September, when Robinson took to the skies, his plane carried a Lewis gun, fired from his cockpit. Wires were in place to prevent the pilot shooting his own propellor, so the arc of fire was limited and really involved using the plane to aim. To make his plane lighter, Robinson omitted to carry the darts (dropped from above to puncture an airship - and not very effective) and also the rockets, to save on weight.

Robinson fired two drums of Brock and Pomeroy into the SL11, over a wide area, with no effect. With his last drum of ammunition, he concentrated on one spot at the rear of the airship. It was then that the airship glowed on the inside, and just like the film of the Hindenburg fire that most people have seen, burst into a spectacular fireball.

Here is a picture of 2693

post-3-1065715067.jpg

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Guest Pete Wood

When Robinson shot down SL11, he reported his method of attack. The authorities did not want the Germans to know how effective the new ammunition was, or how Robinson had found the correct method of attack - concentrating on one small spot.

So a press release was given which stated that "the airship was destroyed by an aeroplane which dropped a number of incendiary bombs into her hull."

But word soon got out about how the airship had really been downed, and revised statements were later made.

But Robinson did receive some assistance. An anti aicraft unit, Temple House battery claimed to have hit the SL11. Shell damage was found in one of the airship's engines. Witnesses claimed that the airship lost height immediately after the shell exploded close to SL11.

But the full honour and victory was bestowed on Robinson who, as most know, got the VC.

A month later, on advice of Robinson and other pilots, the BE2c's armament was changed so that the Lewis gun fired over the wing. Drums were filled with alternate Brock, Pomeroy and Buckingham or Sparklet bullets. Le Prieur rockets might be used from a position slightly above the target. All pilots were advised to shoot in the same area.

Here is a side view of 2693. The ground crew sergeant was not identified in the book that I lifted this pic from - The Air Defence of Britain.

post-3-1065715952.jpg

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In a possible answer to RTs question

Pilots found that tracer/Pomeroy was the best ammunition. But it didn't always ignite the gas (I don't know why!!), and you're right that not all aeroplanes were armed with tracer.

and Lee may be able to back me up, is that for combustion (fire) to start or continue, you need the right combination of fuel, air and heat. In the case of the Zeppelins you would certainly have enough fuel but compartmentation would be a factor, you would have heat (from the tracer) but you may not have the air (oxygen ) factor right. If the gas mixture is too lean or too rich, then combustion will not occur so I think that luck or or all combinations being correct would cause the gas to ignite.

I have some fire manuals plus my own knowledge that could give a more scientific answer but it would probably be more hot air :P

Hope this helps, RT

Peter ;)

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Racing T-P,

Thansk for the detailed answer and takingthe trouble the scan some interesting photos.

By darts I suppose you are referring to 'flechettes' (?).

I have a couple of these and cannot really see their utility in combat with Zeppelins although the theory seems quite reasonable - to a desk jockey!

So looking at the tactics Robinson would have used in firing forwards and slightly up, this is simiilar to that used by the Boulton Paul Defiant twin seater fighters of WW2?

Cheers - Ian

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I think that one of the fundamental differences between the upward firing Lewis gun on the night fighting BE 2c and the four gun turret on the WWII Boulton Paul Defiant is that the BE’s armament was controlled by the pilot, rather than by an observer/air gunner.

Perhaps a better WWII equivalent of the BE’s system(s) is the shräge Musik (Jazz music) installation on Luftwaffe Ju 88 and Bf 110 night fighters. A pair of 20mm MG 151 cannon were mounted in the upper fuselage to fire up at RAF bombers once the night fighter had crept up beneath them. The Japanese Army Air Force used a similar installation on the Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu; in their case against USAAF B-29s.

Strangely, given the effort the RFC put into developing the same sort of thing, I understand that the WWII RAF hierarchy was reluctant to accept accounts from air crews about the Germans using oblique weapons.

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Perhaps a better WWII equivalent of the BE’s system(s) is the shräge Musik (Jazz music)

I don't want to seem pedantic but I thought the translation for this is 'Silent Music' rather than 'Jazz Music' . I could be wrong of course :huh:

Will

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I'm happy to be corrected, but I've always seen the German term translated as 'oblique music = Jazz music'. I understand the Luftwaffe used the name due to the oblique mountings of the weapons.

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I'm happy to be corrected, but I've always seen the German term translated as 'oblique music = Jazz music'. I understand the Luftwaffe used the name due to the oblique mountings of the weapons.

Dolphin - You may already have been correct - I simply don't know. My understanding was the term 'Silent Music' came from the fact that a lot of pilots who were shot down by planes using this mounting were unaware that they were being attacked. This was due to the angle of the mounting, hence the use of the term 'Silent'.

Will

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Dolphin - I suppose also the turrett on the Defiant had some manoeuvrability rather than the BE2c where the gun fired in a 'fixed' position. Plus your point about a Gunner firing the four guns on the Defiant meant the pilot was not distracted.

Ian

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  • 8 years later...

I really wanna see a list of the L50's crew. I think my gran-grand-father was one of them. after they landed in france, he was in captivity, but fortunatly he came back home.

I really wanna see a list of the L50's crew. I think my gran-grand-father was one of them. after they landed in france, he was in captivity, but fortunatly he came back home.

I can add a bit more to the story. The L50, commanded by Kapitanleutnant Roderich Schwonder, had a rough journey - when taking part in the 'Silent Raid.' Most of the crew were suffering from altitude sickness (lack of oxygen) and, because of this, some of the engineers did not perform their maintenance tasks. This led to the failure of one engine, when flying to England. On the way home, another engine failed over the north sea. The radio was also "rendered useless" according to Schwonder in a report (that was smuggled out of the PoW camp).

Schwonder was completely lost and when he got to Tonnerre (some 125 miles inside French territory, from the front line) he decended to 800 feet to try and pick up local landmarks, thinking he was over Holland. Schwonder saw a sign which said 'Cafe du Centre' and realised he was in France - and very short of fuel. He headed east and, by coincidence, saw the intact but downed sister ship L49 (forced to land after being holed by machine gun bullets from some French Nieuport aeroplanes) at Bourbonne-les-Bains.

Schwonder saw that the French planes were taking off to chase the L50, so he climbed rapidly to 6500 feet. But the remaining engines would not allow the L50 to make any headway against a strong wind. Schwonder reported, after the war, that he then decided to deliberately destroy the L50 by driving her into the ground vertically to smash the ship, "like an accordian." Witnesses say that the L50 crashed at high speed, but horizontally. The control car (cabin) was ripped off and many crew jumped from the engine gondolas. With so much less weight, the airship shot up into the air, with the crew trying to set fire to the ship by firing Very pistols at it.

As Tom says, 16 crew were alive and taken prisoner. Two of the remaining crew, carried off, probably died in the initial impact as their gondola was completely smashed against a tree. The two other crew (in the top platform) had been the most badly affected with altitude sickness and were unable to vent the gas to bring the L50 down and save themselves.

Another Zeppelin, L45 had also crash landed - in the bed of the river Bueche, near Sisteron. The crew successfully sabotaged the ship by setting fire to it. As they were being marched away into captivity, they saw the L50 drifting out of control above them.

The L50 rose to 23,000 feet which was 3000 feet too high for the French planes to shoot it down. She was last seen over Frejus (is that near St Raphael??) heading out to sea.

Years later some fishermen claimed to have seen the L50 come down in the Med, around 100 miles South East of Frejus, but there were no survivors.

The L49 was copied by the allies and used as the blueprint for the US airship Shenandoah.

Most of this info is from the Zepp bible, The Zeppelin in Combat by Douglas Robinson.

I have a list of the L50's crew if you need it.

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The L49 was attacked by by fighters of esc. N152 however, they only had ball and tracer ammo so were unable to set the airship on fire. See OTF 2-3 for an a good account of the "Silent Raid"

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  • 6 years later...
On 15.10.2011 at 19:11, octagon7 said:

I really wanna see a list of the L50's crew. I think my gran-grand-father was one of them. after they landed in france, he was in captivity, but fortunatly he came back home.

 

Hi octagon7,

 

It's a L 50's crew list:

http://ribewiki.dk/da/Luftskib_L_50

 

What is a name of your gran-grand-father?

Regards,

pasol.

 

L 50_Besatzung_Bosch Kurse_1917_01m.jpg

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Crewing a zep was indeed very dangerous work on many levels. I read once that the crew of the airship were all awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class for a bombing mission, officers getting higher awards. Not sure if this is true of all crews later on in the war but have seen photos of full crews after award ceremony wearing their medals. Hard earned awards & little comfort if shot down in flames.

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