Terence Munson Posted 21 December , 2006 Share Posted 21 December , 2006 (edited) Hello, I was wondering if anyone has any evidence to confirm or deny the Zeppelin L19 was responsible for the sinking of this vessel? This is the detail of the loss of S.S. Franz Fischer as listed on the website www.worldwar1atsea.net : Franz Fischer, 970grt, 1 February 1916, 2 miles S from Kentish Knock, bombed and sunk by Zeppelin rigid airship, 13 lives lost including Master. Another site www.divernet.com Gives this answer in the site’s Q&A section: ”This search is for the remains of the huge Zeppelin airship L-19 of the Naval Airship Division of the Imperial German Navy, lost in World War One and the only airship ever to bomb and sink a British ship at sea. L-19 was one of nine Zeppelins despatched just before noon on 1 February, 1916 from Germany to bomb Liverpool. Kapitanleutnant Loewe was in command, with Leutnant Schirlitz as his executive officer...............................................At about this time he (Kapitanleutnant Loewe) found the 970 ton British collier Franz Fischer, anchored in the mouth of the Thames estuary. One of the 224ft collier's three survivors saw a bomb fall from the Zeppelin, which was stationary above the ship. It entered the Franz Fischer's funnel, the explosion blew out her bottom and she sank in less than a minute (if you want to dive her she is upright with her coal all around her, 6m proud in 23m, at 51 37.02N; 01 40.28E)”. I have a couple of reference books and have purchased some documents from the NA on Air Raids on Britain 1914-18 but none put the L19 anywhere near the Thames. So any information on this would be appreciated. Cheers Terry Edited 21 December , 2006 by TcM59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 21 December , 2006 Share Posted 21 December , 2006 Terry, In "The German Air Raids on Great Britain 1914-1918" by Captain Joseph Morris (late RAF) the raid of 31st January/1st February 1916 is described in some detail (including specifically that of L 19) and no mention of the bombing of any ship is mentioned. BTW the L 19 came down in the North Sea on its return journey, all the crew were lost. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 21 December , 2006 Share Posted 21 December , 2006 Terry, The www.worldwar1atsea.net info is taken from "British Vessels Lost at Sea." If you manage to identify the attacker I would appreciate it if you would let me know (I have it as unidentified in my database). Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamlash Posted 21 December , 2006 Share Posted 21 December , 2006 Hi Terry, Dictionary of Disasters at Sea. Franz Fischer British Admiralty ( Everett & Newbiggin ); 1881; Irvine & Co.; 970 tons; 224.3 X 31.5 X 12.3; 105n.h.p.; compound engines. The steamship Franz Fischer was formerly German and seized by the British. She was two miles south of Kentish Knock on February 1st 1916, when she was hit and sunk by a bomb from a Zeppelin. The captain and 12 0f the crew were killed. ----------------------------- Lloyd's War Loss Records ( The First World War ) 1916 Feb 1 Franz Fischer (by Zeppelin) Br. 957 gr. tons sunk by bomb, 2 miles S. of the Kentish Knock L.V. Hartlepool for Cowes, Coal. ---------------------------------- Not much aditional information I'm afraid, but confirmation of Zeppelin attack from reputable sources. Regards, Donald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lörscher Posted 22 December , 2006 Share Posted 22 December , 2006 Hi Terry, the German official history claimes FRANZ FISCHER sunk by submarine UB 17 with torpedo! I haven't seen UB 17 war diary so far to confirm this, but maybe Michael can help ? Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 22 December , 2006 Share Posted 22 December , 2006 Oliver, Unfortunately, I don't have UB 17's KTB. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 24 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2006 Hello Oliver, Many thanks for your post, although the info, does ‘muddy the water!’ I’m not familiar with “German Official History” is that the full title? Thanks David, I do have Joseph Morris’ book, interestingly he does write about this in the same raid: Page 81 Quote - “There was a chase of a phantom airship that night. Flight Sub-Lieutenant J.E.Morgan went up from Rochford about quarter to nine, was at 5,000 feet when, according to his report, he saw a little above his own level and slightly ahead to starboard, “a row of what appeared to be lighted windows which looked something like a railway carriage with the blinds drawn.” Morgan thought that he had sighted a hostile airship only some 100 feet away, so he fired at it with his Webley Scott pistol, whereupon he says that “the lights alongside rose rapidly” and disappeared.” Later he was heading west when he established his position as being over the Thames Haven. Don, Thanks for your information. While certainties in this sort of research are few, nine Zeppelins were reported to have crossed the North Sea on the 31st Jan. 1916. It seems, (If a Zeppelin was responsible For the sinking) it must have been one of them that bombed the S.S. Franz Fischer and it must have been well south of the intended course and targets. L19 appears to have had the most problems with navigation due to a faulty radio and intermittent contact, and engine problems. Merry Christmas everyone and Cheers (In every sense) Terry ps ‘Dictionary of Disasters at Sea’ is on my wish list but I don’t think Santa will bring it this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lörscher Posted 24 December , 2006 Share Posted 24 December , 2006 Hello Terry, the "German Official History" was an multi-volume work by the german Admiralty Staff (Generalstabswerk), published between the wars and called "Der Krieg zur See" (The war at sea), dealing with the Northsea, Baltic, Submarine War, Cruiser War etc. Submarine War is covered by 5 vol. ("Der Handelskrieg mit U-Booten"). Apart from that I found other informations on FRANZ FISCHER: Time of loss was 01.02.1916 at 22:30h, so it was the night FOLLOWING the Zeppelin raid !!! All 3 survivors are from below deck and only claimed to HEAR an aircraft overhead, so no eyewitnesses for an Zeppelin-attack! UB 17 on the contrary claimed to have sunk an 700 t patrol ship in Thames estuary. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 24 December , 2006 Share Posted 24 December , 2006 One very slight correction to Oliver's otherwise excellent comments: The last volumes of Der Krieg zur See, such as Der Handelskrieg mit U-Booten, Volume 5, didn't appear until after World War II -- the mid 1960s to be exact. And Terry, Dictionary of Disasters at Sea is available online: http://perso.orange.fr/cdasm.56/dico.htm Hocking's work is OK, not more than that. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 24 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2006 Hello again Oliver, Many thanks for this, it's not the outcome I expected. I thought it would be an untold part of the L19's encounter with the Grimsby trawler King Stephen in the early hours of 2nd February 1916. Cheers Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 24 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2006 ‘Dictionary of Disasters at Sea’ is on my wish list but I don’t think Santa will bring it this year! Thanks for the link Michael. I'm not often wrong but wrong again!! Merry Christmas and Cheers Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 24 December , 2006 Share Posted 24 December , 2006 Terry, you won't be quite so happy when you try to download it. It's about 750 pages in PDF and each has to be done separately! Merry Christmas David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamlash Posted 25 December , 2006 Share Posted 25 December , 2006 Hi, I've got to agree with Michael. Dictionary of Disasters at sea is basic, incomplete and not always accurate, but few sources are perfect and it's a very useful first stop. Ist editions don't come cheap, but you can sometimes get the the facsimile for a more reasonable price. Regards, Donald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 3 February , 2007 Share Posted 3 February , 2007 OK, have obtained a copy of UB 17's war diary for February 1 -4, 1916. The details of the attack match the description of the sinking, so UB 17 must be credited with sinking Franz Fischer. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 4 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2007 OK, have obtained a copy of UB 17's war diary for February 1 -4, 1916. The details of the attack match the description of the sinking, so UB 17 must be credited with sinking Franz Fischer. Best wishes, Michael Michael - Many thanks for this. I'm convinced by this evidence and other posts that UB 17 must be credited with sinking. One wonders how L19 was credited for it in some sources - I guess they will have to consider correcting their records! Thanks to all that contributed to this topic. Your input has been much appreciated. Thanks also to David for the downloads I will use them with your appraisal in mind! Cheers Terry ps. Good to be back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James A Pratt III Posted 12 February , 2007 Share Posted 12 February , 2007 In "Warship 1989" there is a R.D. Layman articel Naval Warfare in a New Dimension 1914-1918, that daels with ships sunk by aircraft in WW I. He states the Franz Fischer was probably sunk by a drifting mine. This could be a possible cause of the ships lossbut, I am inclined to agree with Michael the U-boat man in that the UB17 most likely sank the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Roberts Posted 13 February , 2007 Share Posted 13 February , 2007 Thomas Fegan's book "Baby Killers" makes no mention of the sinking of Franz Fischer despite numerous references to L19 and Loewe. So another reason to go for the U-boat theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 24 October , 2008 Share Posted 24 October , 2008 Firstly, apologies for resurrecting an old thread. I've just come across this, and have actually dived the wreck which lies at the position given above in the first post. Hydrographic evidence does state this is probably the Franz Fisher, but I can assure you it is most definately NOT upright! I cannot access the Divernet link above that states this. She is infact completely upside down, and although visibility was poor at 1-1.5m, I could see midships damage on the underside of the hull, infact a boiler and some engine room gauges/pipes were in evidence. Whether that is due to collapse over 90 years (dived in 2006) or sinking damge I was unsure. However, there seemed to be no damage to the sides of the vessel. Positve ID was not made. There are 3 wrecks in fairly close proximity, approx 1 mile south is the Port Dalhousie (upright and positve ID), and approx 1 mile west from her is a probable steam trawler (as yet I have not dived this wreck, but know someone who has). There are no others in the area of 2 miles south of the Kentish Knock LV. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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