John Cleese

[PhilB]

This post just about qualifies for this section. I think.

John Cleese was expelled from Clifton College. His crime? He painted footsteps leading to the urinals from the statue of Douglas Haig, former pupil. Not a lot of people know that!

BBC Report:-

As a pupil at Clifton College in Bristol, he used painted footsteps to suggest that the school's statue of Field Marshal Haig had left his plinth to relieve himself.

His teachers failed to see the funny side, however, expelling him for his insolence.

[Muerrisch]

As an admirer of Haig and Cleese, I find that anecdote brilliantly funny and wish I had thought of good japes like that in my younger days. How was DH supposed [by Cleese] to get back: fly? flies? ....

[PhilB]

This may be the tip of the iceberg. Who knows what other indignities have been perpetrated on the sainted one`s effigy? Perhaps a Cliftonian member might comment.

I wonder why they chose a college near Bristol for a Lowland Scot?

[truthergw]

According to Charteris, Haig was intended for Rugby but was sent to Clifton as it " Better suited his Classical attainments". I think that means he would not have reached the required standard. Haig came from a class of society which thought of itself as British. Whether one was born in Scotland, Ireland or England would not alter that. This is one of the reasons why the Curragh affair caused consternation. The fact that some British officers considered themselves as owing an allegiance to a part of Britain rather than to the Crown.

[PhilB]

A look around his contemporaries who reached high rank indicates that Eton was the college of first choice for the aristocracy of whom I assume Haig was a paid up member. (though Birdwood & Elles were at Clifton).

[Ron Clifton]

To use the words of Lady Bracknell, I think that Haig was born in the purple of commerce, rather than rising from the ranks of the aristocracy. Those of us who have seen "Oh What a Lovely War" will remember the scene when FM French is dancing with Winifred Bennett, and she asks about his antecedents. French says "Whisky" and she exclaims incredulously "Do you mean TRADE?"

Ron

[michaeldr]

Tom,

Apropos your 'Haig came from a class of society which thought of itself as British. Whether one was born in Scotland, Ireland or England would not alter that. This is one of the reasons why the Curragh affair caused consternation'

Here's some family gossip on the subject

quote: "He never cared for Ireland or the Irish, and he said the way they fought during the rebellion, was cowardly. His patriotism was one of his most marked characteristics, and his great love for Scotland. It would not have taken an observant listener long to realise from his speech, and especially the strong use he made of the letter "R" that he came from "ower the border".

and quote: At tea I remarked all Celts should be exterminated. The F.M. nodded, a sympathetic nod of agreement with my remark, then suddenly I realised our host was a pure Celt, but luckily our hostess was stone deaf.“

In reference to this subject of Celt, I would like to record that the historic kilted regiments held no warm place in his heart, but he thought one of the finest regiments of the war was the K.O.S.Bs. He was interested when I told him that a Covenanter called Cameron, who came from Falkland raised the Cameronians"

from Memories of Earl Haig

by Ruth De Pree

seen here http://scotsatwar.co.uk/AZ/HaigFellows'Addresses02.html

regards

Michael

[PhilB]

As a Sassenach myself, could someone explain how DH could be sure he wasn`t a Celt?

[bruce]

I don't know if they still do, but for some years, as part of Rag Week at Essex University, steps were painted down the steps from the statue of Queen Victoria, outside the entrance to the castle, across the road, and into the public bar of the Victoria Vaults opposite.

[truthergw]

Haig spoke with a Scots accent but, politically, he would have thought of himself as British. It was no accident that he was educated in English prep and public schools and went to an English university. He came from a class which saw itself as the backbone of the British Empire. He would have been horrified at today's devolution and moves toward greater independence. Haig's patriotism was to Britain which does not preclude a particular affection for Scotland and the country of his birth and early childhood. To Haig, a Celt would have implied a Gaelic speaker or inhabitant of the Gaeltacht.

[michaeldr]

Phil,

With apologies if this is deviating too much from your thread;

But I have always thought that John Cleese

could have doubled for this WWI general

[PhilB]

No deviation there, Michael! Yes, it could be Cleese made up for a part in Oh What a Lovely War. Who is he? Careful though - you may unwittingly spawn a new thread "WW1 Lookalikes"!

[Jim Clay]

Talking of spawning threads, Phil, you may care to pop into Skindles and check out the thread spawned by one of your earlier 'suggestions'.

Jim

[PhilB]

Which one James? I check Skindles regularly to see nothing untoward is afoot. All members behaving satisfactorily at last check.

[Jim Clay]

Philip! Look for one headed 'I was so much older then...' As if Skindlers would do otherwise!

[PhilB]

Just seen it Jim. Guilty as charged! The words "can" & "worms" spring to mind!

[michaeldr]

quote; "Yes, it could be Cleese made up for a part in Oh What a Lovely War. Who is he?"

Phil,

it is Sir Alexander John Godley KCB, KCMG

[see a biography here http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/godley.htm]

best regards

Michael

[PhilB]

Thanks, Michael.

Interesting fact - Cleese was born Cheese but changed his name after being bullied for it in the army. I served with a chap called Cheeseman and he`d no problem.

[Ron Clifton]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 14 2008, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I served with a chap called Cheeseman and he`d no problem.

Was he the chap in the Walmington-on-Sea Home Guard?

Incidentally I don't think the ex heavyweight wrestler and former Coldstreamer Shirley Crabtree got much ribbing, either.

Ron

[Gibbo]

Phil B asked 'As a Sassenach myself, could someone explain how DH could be sure he wasn`t a Celt?'

All Scots regarding themselves as Celts is comparatively recent. In the 18th century & at least the early part of the 19th only Highlanders would have been regarded as Celts. A couple of years ago I attended a talk at the Edinburgh Book Festival by Prof. Tom Devine, a leading Scottish Historian. He mentioned a book published in Edinburgh in the mid 19th century. This unworthy tome attempted to rank races on various criteria; Ancient Athenians came top with Lowland Scots second. Highland Scots were near the bottom. I don't remember exactly where the English came but it was near the top. The romanticism of the Highlands & the popularity of Highland regiments was a phenomenon of the second half of the 19th century. At least in the 18th century, Highlanders would have been regarded as barbarians in Edinburgh. Haig's apparently negative views on Highlanders & Celts were probably pretty old fashioned for his day but would have been more common in Edinburgh a little earlier.

[Alan Lines]

Haig's first loyalty was to his "class" not Nation. He was not alone either.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Haig's first loyalty was to his "class" not Nation. He was not alone either.

What factual evidence can you offer to support that bald statement? Or is it just your personal opinion? My own view is that there is more evidence - both documented and anecdotal - that Haig's first loyalties were to King and Country.

ciao,

GAC

[Alan Lines]

Plenty of evidence George, but at the end of the day it all comes down to opinion in my opinion. . By "not alone" I meant the so called "officer classes" of most if not all of the nations involved in WW1. A good example is the difference in treatment an "other rank" could expect compared to a "gentleman" when taken prisoner.

[scottmarchand]

Oddly enough (ironically enough) Both Haig and Cleese were Rectors at the University of St Andrews, from Wikipedia:

From 1970 to 1973 Cleese served as rector of the University of St Andrews.[5] While his election by the students might have seemed a prank, it proved a milestone for the University, revolutionising and modernising the post. For instance, the Rector was traditionally entitled to appoint an "Assessor", a deputy to sit in his place at important meetings in his absence. Cleese changed this into a position for a student, elected across campus by the student body, resulting in direct access and representation for the student body for the first time in over 500 years. This was but one of a host of improvements that Cleese swept in as a true wind of change.

Haig from wikipedia:

He maintained ties with the British Army after his retirement; he was honorary colonel of the 17th/21st Lancers (having been honorary colonel of the 17th Lancers from 1912), Royal Horse Guards, The London Scottish and the King's Own Scottish Borderers. He was also Lord Rector and, eventually, Lord Chancellor of the University of St Andrews.

[AndyHollinger]

The fact that some British officers considered themselves as owing an allegiance to a part of Britain rather than to the Crown.

I think this is rather the culmination of almost 2 centuries of union. At least from my studies, upper middle and almost all educated upper class thought of Britain as one country. There was scarce a thought that Scotland wasn't a relic from a distant past, much like Wales and that now unified, their names carried traditional significance only. It is a 20th C phenom that the Upper Middle and Upper classes take hold of a regional (national) heritage as primary. From my reading it was much like in the US where they would ask a Educated 20C Southerner about the South and somehow think he would know about Grits and Nascar ... but see it as one county ...

In the mid-late 20C these things became fashionable again ... and with Mel's movie, Scotland, at least saw a rebirth of Nationalism that parallels Quebec ... perhaps the swansong of the 20C will be a balkanization trend among nations and societies ...

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 13 2008, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a Sassenach myself, could someone explain how DH could be sure he wasn`t a Celt?

At the beginning of the last century, wasn't the general opinion that the Celts had died except among the Irish Catholic and the "wild" Highland Scot?

IF you look at your English/British (remember until the 1970s the terms used to be interchangable) History, you'll see barely a mention of Celts or Celtish heritage outside of backward references. We even pronounced it selt versus Kelt ...