Oh, What A Lovely War

[midletonman2001]

I recently purchased a copy of this film because it has been suggested that I audition for a part in a possible stage production of the play. I found the film very interesting and not just for its amazing cast -

Dirk Bogarde, John Gielgud, John Mills, Kenneth More, Laurence Olivier, Jack Hawkins, Corin Redgrave, Michael Redgrave, Vanessa Redgrave, Ralph Richardson, Maggie Smith, Ian Holm, Malcolm McFee, Nanette Newman, Edward Fox, Susannah York, John Clements, Phyllis Calvert, Maurice Roëves, Angela Thorne, Thorley Walters, Anthony Ainley, Michael Bates and so on.

For those that don't know it is an anti war film and it deals with many of the terrible errors made in the Great War but it left me feeling rather disturbed as I felt it trivialised the massive effort made. I am sure that was not the intention and that feeling may simple be my own misapprehension. Has anyone else seen this film? I would be very interested to hear others views on it.

[Tom Kilkenny]

You have to look at it for what it is: a period piece.

The play was written at a time when Britain's involvement in the Great War was regarded in a particular way (lions led by donkeys etc) and when there was a great deal of anti-war feeling generally (the 1960s).

Despite this, it's a moving piece of theatre and it's a brilliant film. How could you possibly go wrong with all those wonderful songs?

Tom

[marina]

Music great.

Interpretation lousy.

[Mark Hone]

Two (vaguely) interesting points:

1.) The film was directed by Sir Richard Attenborough. I jokingly suggested a few years ago that he should forfeit his knighthood and be sent to the Tower for the insidious anti-British line he has pursued in his films, portraying his countrymen as cowardly, cruel or stupid whether as actor or director. For example the idea that British commanders are inherently incompetent is a major feature of 'Oh, What a Lovely War' and 'A Bridge Too Far'.

2.) Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig is portrayed totally unsympathetically by Sir John Mills. Sir John was a great friend of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and of course Haig was also closely connected to the Royal Family. I wonder what the Queen Mother thought of this portrayal? Amittedly she had 'married into' the firm and had lost a brother in the war.

[truthergw]

This movie should be watched wearing an afghan coat over brushed denim suit with flared trousers. Long hair is de rigeur, jesus boots optional.

[Alan Tucker]

Two (vaguely) interesting points:

1.) The film was directed by Sir Richard Attenborough. I jokingly suggested a few years ago that he should forfeit his knighthood and be sent to the Tower for the insidious anti-British line he has pursued in his films, portraying his countrymen as cowardly, cruel or stupid whether as actor or director. For example the idea that British commanders are inherently incompetent is a major feature of 'Oh, What a Lovely War' and 'A Bridge Too Far'.

2.) Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig is portrayed totally unsympathetically by Sir John Mills. Sir John was a great friend of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and of course Haig was also closely connected to the Royal Family. I wonder what the Queen Mother thought of this portrayal? Amittedly she had 'married into' the firm and had lost a brother in the war.

Some joke! Send Sir Richard to the Tower for reflecting the prevailing view of the Great War at that time. I suppose he should be joined by Joan Littlewood, Alan Clark and any surviving English teacher from that period. The BBC Great War' did not deviate from this line albeit more insidiously. As a teenager in the 60s one felt proud that our fathers and uncles had done their bit in the fight against evil between 1939 and 1945. We did not really understand the earlier conflict but were impressed by 'On What a Lovely War'. After all we still sang 'Tipperary' and 'Pack up' on return from coach trips. The revisionists would also have been in short trousers at that time! As Mark ought to know 'Each generation writes its own history'.

Sir Richard is a truly great Brit if you look at his career. In no way could he be called anti-British. For goodness sake he served in the RAF in WW2. In 1963 the actor Attenborough played Squadron Leader Roger Bartlett in the Great Escape. In 1972 he directed 'Young Winston' (sympathetically). In 1983 Gandhi was part of post-empire realisation that it was not a great thing for the natives! Cry Freedom in 1987 is about justice. I am just glad that there are people like Sir Richard around who do not take a Daily Mail view of the world.

[ypres1418]

we love the music, Seb's only complaint you dont see them fighting,

when they were little it was one of their favourite films especially the leap frog song! 'one staff officer jumped right over another staff officers back!'

I'm singing it now while writting!

Mandy

[Mark Hone]

Alan, please note that I said 'jokingly'. Nevertheless I stick to my point that there is an undercurrent of the British as incompetent in Dickie's war pictures, whether as actor or director. This struck me when I sat down and watched 'The Great Escape' all the way through for the first time in ages a couple of Christmasses ago. Although the British, led by Bartlett (Attenborough) are portrayed as plucky, the film does largely blame their blundering for the eventual failure of the escape, a fact overlooked by people who just see it as a jolly boys' own wartime romp. By contrast the Americans like McQueen and Garner are portrayed as less hide-bound and blinkered, as they are, interestingly, in 'A Bridge Too Far' which Dickie directed. I seem to recall that colleagues of the real officer on whom Bartlett is based objected to the way he was portrayed in the film.

A film clearly inspired by the Great Escape, 'Von Ryan's Express', which I also watched again recently, seemed to me to have a rather more subtle approach to the Anglo-American relationship. I had remembered it incorrectly as another example of blundering Brits led by canny Yank, but in fact 'Von' Ryan, played by Sinatra, is by no means infallible and makes a couple of crucial mistakes which lead to numerous allied deaths against the advice of British officer Trevor Howard.

[Will O'Brien]

I love the film for what it is. Great casting, Original ways of portraying certain scenes (the use of the poppy, the merry go round & train on the pier imediately spring to mind), good songs. As a piece of visual entertainment it is fantastic. As a historical source I treat it as inaccurate, biased & a product of it's time. This doesn't detract anything for me as I don't view it as a historical document...................The one thing which did disapoint me was the commentary by Sir Richard Attenborough on the DVD (yes I'm one of those sad blokes who will sit & watch a film with the cast/director commentary running). Sir Richard for all his greatness does not hold the same views as I & he most definately sits in the 'Lions led by Donkeys' camp.

[redorchestra]

I watched a documentary a while back called something like 'Daddy, what did you do in the Great War?' on BBC3, about children who had lost their dads in the Great War. One of them (I forget his name) was one of the principal writers of 'Oh what a lovely war'. He never met his dad at all due to the First World War, so I suppose you can excuse him for having some bitterness about it!

[Mark Hone]

It was the veteran BBC radio producer Charles Chilton. As well as 'Oh, What a Lovely War' he was the creator of the immortal 'Journey Into Space' with Jet Morgan (Andrew Faulds) and Chilton's good friend David Jacobs doing most of the rest of the voices.

[MartinWills]

Do bear on mind that the play and the film do differ somewhat. Fine as the film is, I personally much prefer the play.

[findabetterole]

1.) The film was directed by Sir Richard Attenborough. I jokingly suggested a few years ago that he should forfeit his knighthood and be sent to the Tower for the insidious anti-British line he has pursued in his films, portraying his countrymen as cowardly, cruel or stupid whether as actor or director. For example the idea that British commanders are inherently incompetent'.

Mark... from past experiance..... 'Most of them are!', and at the time of WW.1... most of them were, especially the General Staff for the most part!

Seph

[Desmond7]

For us anoraks? A lot of class based, flower power, Alan Clarke influenced, Carnaby Street Keek.

For 'outsiders'? Generally the way they see it.

For viewing? Put all you really know to the side and admire the cinematography (or woteffer). Magnif.

Except for the bit about the Somme when they do the Irish bit wrong. Sorry. Those who know will be aware of the issues at hand!!!

[ChrisLS]

...I love it for the songs...

[PBI]

Rubbish Film - Too Many Luvvies Directed by Dickie (All The Generals Are Buffoons) Attenborough,but Memorable for a Great Set of Songs.

[David Filsell]

It made me furious at the time, but now it seems an interesting period piece driven by Littlewood's political views. (Rant coming up) But the lying, womanising Clarke should have gone to the Tower. For what it's worth I think there have been few less principled men in British politics and it makes me furious that his books are still on sale and read.

[stoj22]

Brilliant film, the sets, the songs and the whole concept are great. OK so it's not 100% historically correct but it's a musical not a documentry!!

p.s. I did used to wear loons and an afghan!!

[Alan Tucker]

It made me furious at the time, but now it seems an interesting period piece driven by Littlewood's political views. (Rant coming up) But the lying, womanising Clarke should have gone to the Tower. For what it's worth I think there have been few less principled men in British politics and it makes me furious that his books are still on sale and read.

WE should Alan Clark as well but he has gone to a better place

[Max]

I can honestly say that I don't think that I have ever seen it.

[squirrel]

Was impressed when I saw it in the sixties and knew no better. Most moving part for me was when the soldier lays down on the grass at the end and transforms in to a cross among a vast number of crosses increasing in number as the camera pans back.

Must buy a DVD and watch it again.

[PBI]

If My Old R.S.M. had seen the Lengths of the Hair of Some of the Males,Cast as Supposed Infantrymen (Peter Gilmore comes to mind) He would have had a Fit !!!!..."Take That Mans Name !!!"...

[Gunner Bailey]

Great film, great songs but not history. It is entertainment, but you can't deny the last few seconds of the film with the hillside covered in crosses is a powerful message.

Gunner Bailey

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Can some one tell me when Baron Attenborough of Richmond-upon-Thames was stripped of his peerage? It seems strange to complain about inaccuracy and then perpetuate it! As for his views: as a starting actor he had little choice in the roles he was able to take, it would depend more on what he was offered. Any ideas he had on war are likely to have been coloured by his own service in WW2.

I saw (at one school) and was in the play (at another) before I saw the film and would echo that the two are different. As a regular feature for school plays, this has seeped into the public consciousness to stand for the futility of the war.

[Arnie]

The attitudes and opinions of Oh What a Lovely War were the prevalent ones from 1919, even before the revisionist appeared in 1963 with Terrains 'Haig the Educated Soldier' in 1963.

I saw the film with my Dad at the AKC in Berlin, He liked it very much and most of the incidents depicted, he claimed had read or heard many times before in the twenties and thirties'. He also claimed to have a production similar to Lovely war on the Pier at Cleethorpes in the twenty or thirties.

Personally I would challenge the Revisionist to highlight an incident although bowdlerised did not have a basis of truth

Linking 'O What a Lovely War' with Clarks 'Donkeys' is nonsense considering that the Donkeys only preceded Lovely War production by by a few months and I'm sure that it took at least two years planning the Lovely war. So perhaps the feeling about the Donkeys was stronger after the war when many old soldiers’ memories were still very active

Speaking about dates, here is few to play with;

1963 Joan Littlewoods production of 'Oh What a Lovely War'

1963 John Terrain publishes 'Haig the Educated Soldier'

1964 John Terrain historical advisor to BBC's 'The Great War'

1967 Attenboroughs 'Oh What a Lovely War'

So did Terrain publish 'Haig' with his tongue in his mouth because 'The Great War was not as favourable to Haig? Strange because Liddell Hart resigned from the production staff because he though it white washed the 'Donkeys'

By the way as a matter of interest the KOYLI is well represented in the Film. The Old Man entering the pier on the opening scene was supposed to be ex 2nd KOYLI and wearing the Regimental tie. The Band marching along the promenade was lead By Maj Jaegers who was an ex KOYLI band boy and later Bugle Major. Most of the soldiers were badged KOYLI,