Use of shotguns?

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Could anyone tell me if the British Army ever used shotguns on the Somme in 1916? I have a Stammrolle record for July 1916 from IR 169 where the wound is described as a shotgun shot.

Ralph

[Khaki]

I haven't heard of the British using shotguns in 1916, however it would be foolish to suggest that it never happened, the other possibility is that it was a wound from a German held shotgun.

khaki

[4thGordons]

I believe I have read of "alarm" type tripwires (similar to those used by gamekeepers) that utilized shotgun cartridges and I have a dim recollection of "booby trap" devices using the same although I will have to struggle to recall where.

I know of no British issue of shotguns in this period outside very early use from aircraft.

Chris

[JMB1943]

I believe I have read (possibly here) that the British Army refused to use shotguns throughout the war because of fears that they were not legal under the terms of the Geneva convention.

Regards,

JMB

[Stoppage Drill]

I have read (where ?) accounts of officers arming themselves with privately owned shot guns.

[Moonraker]

See these earlier threads

here

and

here

Moonraker

[SiegeGunner]

What's the German term used in the Stammrolle entry, Ralph?

[David Filsell]

N hijack intended her, but although I am aware of the use of shotguns by the Americans in Viet Nam, and, according to a former SAS man, in Malaya (n line shooter he)I had long been under the impression that their use in war was not 'allowed' under the terms of the Geneva Convention although I do not know when, or if, such a constraint existed, or changes have been made to the convention with 'approve' their use in combat.Can anyone confirm the actual situation.

[Stoppage Drill]

N hijack intended her, but although I am aware of the use of shotguns by the Americans in Viet Nam, and, according to a former SAS man, in Malaya (n line shooter he)I had long been under the impression that their use in war was not 'allowed' under the terms of the Geneva Convention although I do not know when, or if, such a constraint existed, or changes have been made to the convention with 'approve' their use in combat.Can anyone confirm the actual situation.

Infantry used shotguns in Malaya, yes. Browning A5 (the "Humpback) was favoured, but that may have been a matter of availability.

There is currently a combat shotgun on the British Armed Forces inventory, a version of the Benelli M4.

[Gareth Davies]

See these earlier threads

here

and

here

Moonraker

Ah, those were the days.

[David Filsell]

Thanks, seems the Geneva Convention was not involved.

[Khaki]

The standard British sporting doubles of the day didn't lend themselves to being a practical shotgun for military combat purposes and to the best of my knowledge there were no pump shotguns manufactured in GB.

The guns seen here with their tube magazine capacity (5) had the basics for a good trench weapon and with a heat shield and bayonet boss the picture was complete.

khaki

[MikB]

Hesketh Prichard says shotguns weren't used, either by British or Germans. He speculates that the Germans didn't use them because there were so many in Britain that German shotguns would be rapidly outnumbered - apparently taking for granted that the British would never initiate their use.

[Khaki]

I have seen a photo of a German soldier with a double shotgun, probably more likely for foraging, the OP report of a German wounded by a shotgun, maybe a possibility exists that it was a civilian franc tireur who inflicted the wound.

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

Thanks, seems the Geneva Convention was not involved.

Germany protested via ICRC about American use of shotguns. The legal provision they attempted to rely upon was the section of the Hague Convention which outlawed weapons/projectiles which were designed to cause unnecessary suffering.

[dman]

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0218161307.jpg

The standard British sporting doubles of the day didn't lend themselves to being a practical shotgun for military combat purposes and to the best of my knowledge there were no pump shotguns manufactured in GB.

The guns seen here with their tube magazine capacity (5) had the basics for a good trench weapon and with a heat shield and bayonet boss the picture was complete.

khaki

European shotguns were more the toys of the aristocracy who used them for grouse/pheasant hunting . Their shotguns were custom made and

often engraved and inlaid. Hunting was the preserve of the aristocracy - lower classes were barred from hunting

American shotguns were utilitarian tools - almost every rural resident had one for pest control, hunting for food not sport and defense against

criminal element.

The development of Winchester 1897 pump and its clones from Remington were extremely popular - gave 5 shots in magazine (+1 in chamber) for 6

shots. While engraved models were available (for a price) most were plain rugged tools

Required only few modifications (ventilated hand guard over barrel, bayonet mount) to convert it into a weapon of war.....

[Cpl Coleman]

Example of a WWI US Winchester Trench Shotgun Model 97

[Khaki]

Hey Cpl,

Nice looking 97, you got there.

khaki

[tom bowler]

A sawn off shotgun would have been just the weapon to use in close quarter fighting in the trenches in WW1. Rifles are too large/long, especially with bayonet attached, to swing round in ambush operations.

[Khaki]

I imagine that had the British forces requested shotguns, then they would have been part of the inventory, I think German complaints would have fallen on deaf ears. Other production of shells, machine guns etc probably had the priority at that time.

khaki

[Doc2]

N hijack intended her, but although I am aware of the use of shotguns by the Americans in Viet Nam, and, according to a former SAS man, in Malaya (n line shooter he)I had long been under the impression that their use in war was not 'allowed' under the terms of the Geneva Convention although I do not know when, or if, such a constraint existed, or changes have been made to the convention with 'approve' their use in combat.Can anyone confirm the actual situation.

The USA used Winchester M1897 12 Gauge shotguns in WWI. The Germans sent a diplomatic note protesting with a reference to the "Laws of War". The USA checked with their lawyers and decided that the use of these guns was not prohibited, and rejected the German diplomatic note. Needless to say, the Germans were not happy. The German reference was to the Hague convention, not the Geneva convention.

[MikB]

European shotguns were more the toys of the aristocracy who used them for grouse/pheasant hunting . Their shotguns were custom made and

often engraved and inlaid. Hunting was the preserve of the aristocracy - lower classes were barred from hunting

American shotguns were utilitarian tools - almost every rural resident had one for pest control, hunting for food not sport and defense against

criminal element.

The development of Winchester 1897 pump and its clones from Remington were extremely popular - gave 5 shots in magazine (+1 in chamber) for 6

shots. While engraved models were available (for a price) most were plain rugged tools

Required only few modifications (ventilated hand guard over barrel, bayonet mount) to convert it into a weapon of war.....

The European double shotgun market had a large utilitarian end too, used by all classes of country people from the smallholder or crofter, and supplied by Belgian and Spanish gunmakers as well as some British and American.

Double shotgun users in organised parties were perfectly capable of slaughtering quantities of game well in excess of immediate nutritional needs, and of wiping out local populations of animals and birds that predated their livestock or crops.

Said smallholders and crofters in the early 20th C would not be able to afford the price of a highly-engineered product like a pump-action shotgun.

Although they may have been used in game and pest shooting, guns like the M1897 were primarily fighting guns, not agricultural implements.

[David Filsell]

Thanks chaps.

Another long held misapprehension destroyed.

David

[Stoppage Drill]

Thanks chaps.

Another long held misapprehension destroyed.

David

Have a drink. It makes things easier to bear.

[David Filsell]

Thank you. I'll sip at while I consider the one.