GRANVILLE Posted 10 November , 2009 Share Posted 10 November , 2009 As I understand it, in Full Marching Order the Greatcoat was carried in the (back) Pack along with a few other items. In the event of the individual being well proportioned & the Greatcoat being of considerable size, what happened with this piece of kit when it became too large to be placed in the Pack? Was there a technique to folding it so it would in fact go into the Pack regardless, or could it be carried in some way, other than being worn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 12 November , 2009 Share Posted 12 November , 2009 In answer... Yes! Folded as per a bell tent, a set of wheels attached underneath, a handle either side, and it was pushed as heavy cargo! Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evolution Posted 12 November , 2009 Share Posted 12 November , 2009 It would be rolled and carried beneath the large pack, I believe the 2 straps you see at the back of pack which was used to carry the tin hat, was in fact for the greatcoat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 12 November , 2009 Share Posted 12 November , 2009 The straps for the pack were to hold the pack into the soldiers body and so distribute weight. They attached to the short diagonal straps on the pouches.(1908 webbing) Cheers, Paul. http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/1908_packs.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 21 November , 2009 Share Posted 21 November , 2009 The Greatcoat was always worn in the Valise (large pack) in Marching Order by Infantry equipped with 1908 or 1914 Pattern equipment. When I was about to go on my first Khaki Chums trip to Dunkirk in 1990, I bemoaned the fact that it was hard work getting my greatcoat into my pack to my Dad's mate, Bill Todd. Bill had joined the Royal Marines in the late 1930s and he soon put me right. He said, "You can get that coat rolled up so that it rattles around in the bottom of the pack with room to spare!". He then showed me how to unbutton the back belt, pass the two halves of the back belt through the slits provided for the purpose so that they were on the inside. He then laid the coat flat on the floor, folded both sides in so that they were narrower than the width of the large pack. He then started folding the coat from the collar down and the bottom up, kneeling on it as he went. With much effort he then pulled the two halves of the back belt over the rolled coat and buttoned them back together to keep it tightly rolled. He said to me, "hold the pack open". He then dropped it in and it literally did rattle around inside! Since then I have never had a problem getting a greatcoat into a large pack - along with D-Type mess tins, spare shirt, spare socks and whatever other kit should be in there. Even now that I am much bigger than I was as a 20 year old (and have a bigger greatcoat) I can still manage it (albeit that the coat no longer rattles around but is a bit of a squeeze!). The rest of the kit still fits in the pack with it. The last time I did so was at St Gillies Waas in October on the Khaki Chums' 1914 Royal Naval Division Antwerp Tour. We packed our kit, in the dark, on the site of the old railway station and set off at 9.30pm for the Dutch Border along the route taken by the 1st Royal Naval Brigade who marched into internment rather than captivity in October 1914 - exactly 95 years to the minute earlier. Even in the rush it was no problem fitting the large (and brand new) early pattern greatcoat into the pack. The one inch 'Valise Straps", worn across the front of the pack are for securing additional kit. The waterproof cape can often be seen held flat under the crossed straps. Caps and helmets are also secured to the outside of the large pack with the straps, curving round either side of the helmet or cap to hold it in place. The bucked ends of the valise straps certainly fastened to the short 1" straps at the rear of the pouches. This stopped the pack (or haversack) bouncing around and made the "figure of 8" around the body which was an important feature of Major Burrowes' design. In Battle Order the valise straps were often used to carry the waterproof cape. A greatcoat would be to awkward to carry rolled at the back of the belt and, considering that they were banned from the front line during the official army summer time, there would be no need to carry them that way as they were left in the large packs with the Transport. In the winter they were worn on the way up to the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thorne Posted 21 November , 2009 Share Posted 21 November , 2009 The correct technical term for the Patt. '08 1-inch straps, as defined in the introductory List of Changes paragraph, is "Straps, supporting." The last equipment to correctly use the term "valise straps" would be the Equipment, Pattern 1888. While the supporting straps certainly can be used to carry items of kit on the outside of the pack, they are there for a specific purpose - to balance the load by transferring the weight of the pack to the cartridge carriers, so that the pack was not supported by the braces. Mills made haversacks and rucksacks that did have straps on them specifically for carrying items externally, but this was not a feature of the Patt. '08 design. in this case that usage was, I believe, an unintended advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 21 November , 2009 Share Posted 21 November , 2009 Hi John, That is very true - and the large pack was known simply as the Pack (although 'large pack' makes it clearer which one I mean). In 1992 we met a few Great War veterans at St Julien and one of them asked us to take a set of equipment apart and reassemble it for him "for old times' sake". He referred to the 'Straps, supporting' as 'valise straps' and it has stuck ever since. It must have been a term he was familiar with as he was unlikely to have come across a full set of 1888 kit in his time although he may, of course, have been issued a part set for training. Having worn the kit for literally hundred of hours, over many miles, I am sure that the straps were not just there for support. If that was the intention a buckle on the bottom of the pack (just like the one on the Haversack), attached by a short length of webbing, may have sufficed. The long straps are a very simple and practical means of fastening additional kit while retaining Burrowes' design for balancing the load just as you describe. Plenty of photographs taken throughout the war show them being used to carry all manner of extra kit although I'm always happy to be proved wrong. Kharkee Web is a superb site. I keep meaning to dig out some of my unusual stuff and email you some photographs... Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 22 November , 2009 Share Posted 22 November , 2009 For Dave and the others who asked about the new Greatcoats I mentioned, here are some photos of one being modeled by Nosher Baker... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 22 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2009 They look very good in my opinion. Dave Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 22 November , 2009 Share Posted 22 November , 2009 Thanks Dave. We copied a real one and spent quite some time getting the material right. They are extremely warm for sleeping in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john gregory Posted 22 November , 2009 Share Posted 22 November , 2009 Hi Taff, I do'nt know if this any use to you, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 22 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2009 I guess the frustrations which must have been encountered in trying to get everything into the pack, will explain the common practice of having the mess tin swinging away on the outside of the pack? DU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 22 November , 2009 Share Posted 22 November , 2009 Hi John, Good to hear from you. I have a copy of 'Field Service Manual 1914; Infantry Battalion (Expeditionary Force)' date 11/14. What date is yours? The total weight in November 1914 was 59lb 6 3/4oz across the board. It's very interesting to see "Large man" and "Small man" listed separately. 2lb extra for the big fellas is not a lot to carry but does make less space in the Pack. Dave, It is quite rare to see the mess tins carried on the outside in Marching Order. In Battle Order they usually found their way onto the haversack fastening straps as there is no room in the haversack for them and the Pack was left behind with the Transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 Taff, The greatcoat you show as an illustration.... with the fob pocket! Is that example early, mid or late war? Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 The greatcoat you show as an illustration.... with the fob pocket! Is that example early, mid or late war? Early and pre-war - like the tunics, versions were introduced with the un-necessary features removed during the war to save on materials and speed up production - so you see different versions lacking the ticket pocket, the rifle patches to the shoulders, and I think the last to go was the turn-back cuffs (I have a 1937 dated one with none of the "extras" present, so I suspect that after the war they never went back to making the more complicated version). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 Are greatcoats still issued to other than ceremonial troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 Andrew/Bootnecks, Here is the timeline of dismounted Great Coat approvals. Introduced in 1902-the first verions did not look like the common types in use in WWI. The first ones had no shoulder straps and had openings in the front to access the SD jacket pockets. In 1904 shoulder straps were added. The attached photo shows the 1904 version and 1905 version side by side. It is also not uncommon to see the 1904 version in early Great War studio photos. I have one and I know there is at least one photo in Steve C's book. 6059b/1905 22/11/05 Turn-back Cuffs and Ticket pocket added 6059c/1908 16/7/08 Insignia change (Admin change) 6059d/1909 7/1/09 Shoulder straps re-positioned other Mods to number of buttons etc. (Taff's photo shows this pattern) 8109/1914 6/8/14 Rifle patches and ticket pocket removed (I doubt this had anything to do with the war given date, also this pattern appears to have been manufactured in the UK for quite some time after the adoption of the simplified pattern) Unknown Circa late 1914 Coats, Great drab mixture Dismounted Simplified Simplified Pattern (900000 of this pattern were manufured in the USA, I have a Feb 1915 dated coat made by Burton Pierce in the US) 9742/1917 20/11/17 Coats, Great drab mixture Dismounted All Machine Sewn 9884/1918 24/4/18 Improved Pattern. The biggest unlnown is the variety of lining pieces which range from none (official pattern to 1917/18) to quarter pieces and half linings. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 Excellant Joe.. Thank You. Thats just the info that Ive been searching for. There are several Manufacturer/Dealers over here and in the UK who have various patterns of greatcoat on their listings. What the confusing part is, is deciding which items are period correct for the impression that my unit portrays. So, the iformation that you have just so kindly posted is invaluable. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 Great reply as ever Joe! Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 5 December , 2009 Share Posted 5 December , 2009 Great reply as ever Joe! Taff Joe.. if I may... In connection to the information you posted earlier, would it be possible to post a comparison pic of the three main types [as I see it] of the early, mid and late war greatcoat examples? This would make things a lot clearer, and place into perspective the various modifications. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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