Stretcher-Bearers and Signing Up

[AdolescentAuthor]

Hi there! I'm currently writing a novel based around the impact of the First World War on two main characters, and whilst it's fiction, I'd like to be as close to facts - and therefore plausibility - as possible. So I thought I'd bring my questions to this forum and see if anyone could help. The majority of them are just confirmation of stuff I already know, but I'd like to double-check if that's okay. People sometimes know more than books, I think.

I have an Irish-born character, let's call him character A, who has moved two years previous from Kilkenny to Liverpool, England, and volunteers from Liverpool with his friend as a stretcher-bearer in 1917. He refuses to carry weapons.

The questions I have are as follows:

- What would the process of him signing up for this have involved? Where would he probably have gone to do this? Previous research I've done suggests a civic hall, and that signing up would have involved same procedures as men joining for the army, I'd just like further confirmation that this is plausible.

- What sort of training would he have had before he was sent out to Europe; for how long and what would it include (apart from basic first aid)? As in, would he have learnt how to fire weapons, or could be be exempt from this on religious/moral grounds, as I'd like him to be? I understand they didn't carry weapons and that suits the purposes of the novel, but would they have still learnt how to use them?

- Is it plausible that he and his friend could have worked carrying the same stretcher together? (I'm thinking this would be like Pals' Battalions, but that was for serving soldiers and not stretcher-bearers so I'm a little unsure. There's not a lot of information on this sort of thing for stretcher-bearers, it tends to relate more to serving soldiers.)

- What would his uniform look like? What differences would there be compared to serving soldiers? Previous research suggests it would be the same as a serving soldier, but with a Red Cross armband to identify him, am I correct in thinking this?

Thanks in advance!

- Edited to make questions more specific.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I think you're going to have to do a bit of work yourself on this. What you seem to be asking is for other people to contribute the entire background to your story! You can search on all these topics and find out a lot from existing threads, and there's a lot of information on the Long Long Trail (link at the top left-hand side of the page). Then you can ask specific questions and people here can help.

But this takes a lot of research. Think of Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy, or her more recent Life Class, or Sebastian Faulks's Birdsong - people spend years researching before they write Great War novels.

Forgive me for sounding like the old ex-teacher I am.

Liz

[AdolescentAuthor]

I think you're going to have to do a bit of work yourself on this. What you seem to be asking is for other people to contribute the entire background to your story! You can search on all these topics and find out a lot from existing threads, and there's a lot of information on the Long Long Trail (link at the top left-hand side of the page). Then you can ask specific questions and people here can help.

But this takes a lot of research. Think of Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy, or her more recent Life Class, or Sebastian Faulks's Birdsong - people spend years researching before they write Great War novels.

Forgive me for sounding like the old ex-teacher I am.

Liz

Oh, gosh, I'm really sorry! Now that I read my original post back I realise it probably does sound a lot like that, which wasn't my intention at all: I have actually done a lot of research into this era and I perhaps should have wrote my original post differently to reflect that. I have read all of the Pat Barker books mentioned, and I have a good idea as to general answers - such as I know that my character would probably have signed up in a civic hall, that his uniform would be similar to a soldier's but with a Red Cross armband, etc. I guess what I'm really looking for is confirmation of these things, and I should have worded my original post appropriately so that others would understand this, perhaps by making my questions more specific. Thank you very much for the advice and links; I have had a look at the forum threads previously and will continue to do so - I'll take a look at the Long, Long Trail too.

Don't worry - I appreciate your taking the time to comment, it'll help me in the future when asking questions (as in: I'll make them more specific and give people an idea of what I do already know and just want confirmation of).

Thank you.

[AdolescentAuthor]

Also, I've edited my query to make it more specific, and to show what I merely need confirmation on. Thanks for your help.

[truthergw]

In 1917, conscription was in place for English, Welsh and Scots. An Irishman who refused to bear arms would not have been enlisted. Stretcher bearers were soldiers first, stretcher bearers second. He might have been able to join a civilian ambulance or something like that. I know they existed but none of the details.

[Magnumbellum]

As Truthergw says,, stretcher-bearing was an ad hoc job for which any soldier might be detailed from time to time. It was not a rank or fixed posting or attached to any particular unit. Also, as Truthergw says, an Irishman presenting himself at a recruiting office, but insisting on non-combatant status, would almost certainly not be enlisted.

Notionally your characters could volunteer for the RAMC, but that would not carry complete non-combatant status. As soldiers they would wear normal army uniform with appropriate corps flashes.

So far as where recruitment took place, it was at local army recruitment offices. If, as Irishmen, they wished to volunteer, they could as easily do so in Ireland. There would be no need to go to Liverpool.

You would be well advised to rethink your scenario from the beginning.

[Muerrisch]

Notionally your characters could volunteer for the RAMC, but that would not carry complete non-combatant status. As soldiers they would wear normal army uniform with appropriate corps flashes.

non-combatant status is a bit like virginity .... you either have it or you don't.

In which way do you envisage that RAMC might be "sort of" combatant, other than receiving initial weapon training, and being allowed to defend themselves and their patients in savage warfare?

[centurion]

The closest your man might get is if he joined the Friends Ambulance Unit (FAU) a uniformed Quaker organisation. Its members drove ambulances and helped in dressing stations.They worked in cooperation with military personel - quite a bit with the French who regarded them as eccentric but useful. However they were not stretcher bearers in the sense of collecting and moving the wounded from the battlefield and would not be used as such as they were still civilians and not under military discipline and were not employed where they might come into contact with the enemy (indeed it might have been illegal to use them in this situation). When conscription began in Britain they were exempted whereupon many left the FAU, thus making themselves subject to call up and then refused to serve. Some ended up in the Non Combatant Corps (where they supplemented Labour units) whilst others went to jail.

If you want to put your character in this role then he should originate from Lurgan which was the centre of Irish Quakerism. However as you've stated it your plot won't fly I'm afraid.

[Heid the Ba]

non-combatant status is a bit like virginity .... you either have it or you don't.

But it is possible to it get back . . .

[Ken Lees]

What? virginity? Now you tell me!

[Magnumbellum]

non-combatant status is a bit like virginity .... you either have it or you don't.

In which way do you envisage that RAMC might be "sort of" combatant, other than receiving initial weapon training, and being allowed to defend themselves and their patients in savage warfare?

In two ways:

1. In a battle emergency, the Army hierarchy had, and still has, the right to call on RAMC personnel to take up arms and join hostilities generally, not simply in defence of themselves and/or their patients. In this connection, it may be remarked that at the beginning of WW2 the War Office was formally asked what units were officially designated as non-combatant, and the reply was, only the Army Corps of Chaplains. For this reason, the Non-Combatant Corps was created to accommodate a certain category of conscientious objectors. Also, even though in WW2 a small number of COs were garnted formal personal non-combatant status within the RAMC and a few other corps, they were not allowed to advance beyond the rank of private because an RAMC or other NCO might be required to assume command in certain battle exigencies.

2. In WW1, by 1918 the Army became so short of infantry that some men who had volunteered for the RAMC pre-conscription, regarding themselves as non-combatants, were forcibly transferred to infantry regiments. On refusal to accept the transfer, they were court-martialled and imprisoned.

[CGM]

Hello AdolescentAuthor,

I have some information I would like to send by Personal Message.

When you pop back to discuss the replies it will bring your number of posts up to 5 and you will become eligible to use this system.

Regards

CGM

[centurion]

an RAMC or other NCO might be required to assume command in certain battle exigencies.

There is certainly at least one case of an RAMC officer assuming command in combat when all other available officers were hors de combat.

[Heid the Ba]

In two ways:

1. In a battle emergency, the Army hierarchy had, and still has, the right to call on RAMC personnel to take up arms and join hostilities generally, (edit)

2. In WW1, by 1918 the Army became so short of infantry that some men who had volunteered for the RAMC pre-conscription, regarding themselves as non-combatants, were forcibly transferred to infantry regiments. On refusal to accept the transfer, they were court-martialled and imprisoned.

In both of these cases the personnel would lose their non-combatant status completely. As Grumpy stated, it is either or. In both cases the personnel would have to give up their identifying badges etc. and would be for all purposes infantry. If the emergency passed they could then become non-combitants again by complying with the relevant Conventions.

[AdolescentAuthor]

In 1917, conscription was in place for English, Welsh and Scots. An Irishman who refused to bear arms would not have been enlisted. Stretcher bearers were soldiers first, stretcher bearers second. He might have been able to join a civilian ambulance or something like that. I know they existed but none of the details.

As Truthergw says,, stretcher-bearing was an ad hoc job for which any soldier might be detailed from time to time. It was not a rank or fixed posting or attached to any particular unit. Also, as Truthergw says, an Irishman presenting himself at a recruiting office, but insisting on non-combatant status, would almost certainly not be enlisted.

Notionally your characters could volunteer for the RAMC, but that would not carry complete non-combatant status. As soldiers they would wear normal army uniform with appropriate corps flashes.

So far as where recruitment took place, it was at local army recruitment offices. If, as Irishmen, they wished to volunteer, they could as easily do so in Ireland. There would be no need to go to Liverpool.

You would be well advised to rethink your scenario from the beginning.

I thought that would be the case myself, but another Internet forum for things like this told me if he had lived in England for two years, he would be legally considered "a British subject, born in Ireland, resident in England", rather than an "Irishman," so I'm hoping that will be the case. In that scenario, he would have been conscripted and sent before a tribunal like others, as he moved to Liverpool because of other circumstances (to find employment.) This means he'd hopefully end up with the RAMC, like you suggested. If that doesn't work, he can volunteer and be assigned to them that way. I know a little about the civilian ambulance services but for the purposes of the novel, my character does need to be resident in the trenches so the RAMC is probably my best bet.

Thank you very much for the information!

[AdolescentAuthor]

The closest your man might get is if he joined the Friends Ambulance Unit (FAU) a uniformed Quaker organisation. Its members drove ambulances and helped in dressing stations.They worked in cooperation with military personel - quite a bit with the French who regarded them as eccentric but useful. However they were not stretcher bearers in the sense of collecting and moving the wounded from the battlefield and would not be used as such as they were still civilians and not under military discipline and were not employed where they might come into contact with the enemy (indeed it might have been illegal to use them in this situation). When conscription began in Britain they were exempted whereupon many left the FAU, thus making themselves subject to call up and then refused to serve. Some ended up in the Non Combatant Corps (where they supplemented Labour units) whilst others went to jail.

If you want to put your character in this role then he should originate from Lurgan which was the centre of Irish Quakerism. However as you've stated it your plot won't fly I'm afraid.

Thank you for this information. It's really useful! However, for the purposes of plot my character does need to be in the trenches, so I think I'm going to go with the RAMC on this one and have him either volunteer or be sent there after tribunal (the latter being in the case that he might be legally considered a "British subject, born in Ireland and resident in England", which is apparently a possibility. I think this will definitely be helpful for other aspects of the plot, though, so really thank you very much!

[centurion]

I thought that would be the case myself, but another Internet forum for things like this told me if he had lived in England for two years, he would be legally considered "a British subject, born in Ireland, resident in England", rather than an "Irishman," so I'm hoping that will be the case.

I know a little about the civilian ambulance services but for the purposes of the novel, my character does need to be resident in the trenches.

Thank you very much for the information!

Even if this was the case which may not be so (there were certainly Irishmen who lived on the British mainland for more than two years and were not conscripted, including some of my relatives, one of whom went back to Ireland and enlisted) it still doesn't fly as he couldn't choose to join up as a stretcher bearer,unless he was well connected and wangled a posting to the RAMC under special terms - incredibly rare. He would have to declare himself as a conscientious objector (CO) and go before a tribunal. In which case one of four things might happen 1. He was allowed to continue as a civilian (perhaps with a commitment to undertake valuable and possibly onerous work) 2. He was conscripted into the Noncombative Corps and employed in construction and portering types of work 3. He was just conscripted as an ordinary soldier anyway 4. He went to jail. If as an ordinary soldier he refused to bear arms he would be court martialed and end up in jail anyway.

[AdolescentAuthor]

Hello AdolescentAuthor,

I have some information I would like to send by Personal Message.

When you pop back to discuss the replies it will bring your number of posts up to 5 and you will become eligible to use this system.

Regards

CGM

Thank you! As soon as it's possible and convenient for you, feel free to PM me.

[AdolescentAuthor]

Even if this was the case which may not be so (there were certainly Irishmen who lived on the British mainland for more than two years and were not conscripted, including some of my relatives, one of whom went back to Ireland and enlisted) but it still doesn't fly as he couldn't choose to join up as a stretcher bearer,unless he was well connected and wangled a posting to the RAMC under special terms - incredibly rare. He would either have to declare himself as a contientious objector (CO) and go before a tribuneral. In which case one of four things might happen 1. He was allowed to continue as a civilian (perhaps with a commitment to undertake valuable and possibly onerous work) 2. He was conscripted into the Noncombative Corps and employed in construction and portering types of work 3. He was just conscripted as an ordinary soldier anyway 4. He went to jail. If as an ordinary soldier he refused to bear arms he would be court martialed and end up in jail anyway.

Right, okay. Thank you for this! The RAMC posting idea won't work just with him on his own, as he's working-class and has very few connections, but if all else fails I may end up using it. If he had a well-connected friend, maybe? Seeing as I plan to have them signing up for whatever's appropriate together.

I suppose that if he was somehow associated with the medical corps - primarily the ones in some sort of makeshift place to treat the wounded - as an orderly, he could maybe be sent out as a stretcher bearer in extreme circumstances?

[Heid the Ba]

How closely would the authorities look into it if an irishman claimed to be english and registered? It doesn't get round any of the other problems but would anyone care greatly if an inelligible man made himself eligible for conscription?

[AdolescentAuthor]

How closely would the authorities look into it if an irishman claimed to be english and registered? It doesn't get round any of the other problems but would anyone care greatly if an inelligible man made himself eligible for conscription?

That would work, maybe. I'd have to find some way of him temporarily losing his accent though - probably by 'putting on' a British one? This is definitely an option. Thank you!

[Doc2]

In both of these cases the personnel would lose their non-combatant status completely. As Grumpy stated, it is either or. In both cases the personnel would have to give up their identifying badges etc. and would be for all purposes infantry. If the emergency passed they could then become non-combitants again by complying with the relevant Conventions.

This is an interesting situation being discussed. As one who used to teach the Geneva Conventions, I would make an argument that such a situation might be considered a serious war crime. It is not permissible to use the protections of the Conventions for a while, then move to a combatant position (without the protections), and then back again. This is similar to the concept of using a helicopter to fly Ammunition to a forward area (without the red cross on it) and then evacuate casualties (with a red cross on), which is strictly forbidden. It is certainly possible to have a medical person (protected) permanently moved to a combatant role (non-protected), but to then try to put them back into a protected role would seem to be an overt violation of the Conventions. This is certainly not permitted in the US armed forces, and specific regulations prohibit medical personnel from commanding any non-medical personnel (e.g. in a POW situation, a medical officer, of any rank, may not serve as the senior commander for the prisoners). Certainly you can have medically-trained personnel serving as combatants (e.g. Special Forces Medics or Special Forces Doctors or Paramedics doing Combat Search and Rescue), but they are not authorised any protection from the Conventions. They certainly don't move in and out of protected status.

Of course, the situation in which a medical person (protected) takes part in defense of himself or his patients during a combat emergency is not disqualified-- that is still compatible with noncombatant (protected) status. But, moving into an infantry role and then back into a medical role later is a very slippery slope.

If anyone has any UK regulations they can show me which provide for this moving in and out of protected status, I would be most appreciative of the chance to see them. Thanks. Doc

[centurion]

I suppose that if he was somehow associated with the medical corps - primarily the ones in some sort of makeshift place to treat the wounded - as an orderly, he could maybe be sent out as a stretcher bearer in extreme circumstances?

Don't want to appear a nay sayer but unlikely as breaking the Hague Convention in that such personnel would not be be "subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict.” They would not be protected under the rules of warfare and if captured on the battlefield would not be entitled to POW status even if wearing a uniform and the enemy could shoot them. The British army was very strict about not allowing civilians into the trenches much less over the top.

[Heid the Ba]

Certainly you can have medically-trained personnel serving as combatants (e.g. Special Forces Medics or Special Forces Doctors or Paramedics doing Combat Search and Rescue), but they are not authorised any protection from the Conventions. They certainly don't move in and out of protected status.

Of course, the situation in which a medical person (protected) takes part in defense of himself or his patients during a combat emergency is not disqualified-- that is still compatible with noncombatant (protected) status. But, moving into an infantry role and then back into a medical role later is a very slippery slope.

It isn't something I could give an example of, and I can only envisage it happening in the rear, and for a lengthy period of time. For example men in a rear area RAMC unit being combed out, incorporated into a combat unit, fighting and then once in reserve again returning to non-combatant status in their medical unit. I fully agree with everything you say that it is not possible to legally jump in and out.

My post was a response to Magnumbellum and they may be able to supply regs or examples.

[Andrew Upton]

This is an interesting situation being discussed. As one who used to teach the Geneva Conventions, I would make an argument that such a situation might be considered a serious war crime. It is not permissible to use the protections of the Conventions for a while, then move to a combatant position (without the protections), and then back again.

...

If anyone has any UK regulations they can show me which provide for this moving in and out of protected status, I would be most appreciative of the chance to see them. Thanks. Doc

Doc, did you teach the current Geneva Convention, or did you look into the past ones? I ask as I have researched the arming of medical personel from the 1906 Geneva Convention in WW1, and compared to later versions it is horrendously vague in certain areas and open to a lot of interpretation.

http://www.vlib.us/medical/geneva.htm

"CHAPTER III.--PERSONNEL.

Article 9.

The personnel engaged exclusively in the collection, transport, and treatment of the wounded and the sick, as well as in the administration of medical units and establishments, and the Chaplains attached to armies, shall be respected and protected under all circumstances. If they fall into the hands of the enemy they shall not be treated as prisoners of war.

These provisions apply to the Guard of medical units and establishments under the circumstances indicated in Article 8 (2)."

"Article 20.

The personnel protected in pursuance of Articles 9 (paragraph 1), 10, and 11 shall wear, fixed to the left arm, an armlet (brassard) with a red cross on a white ground, delivered and stamped by the competent military authority, and accompanied by a certificate of identity in the case of persons who are attached to the medical service of armies, but who have not a military uniform."

I know of the same example Centurion has mentioned, and this seems to pivot on how you define "exclusively engaged" and the protective power of the red cross armband. Does this rule out combat duties completely, or merely whilst under the protection of the armband on medical duties? It reads more like the former, but the Officer clearly interpreted it in the latter way - relinquishing his protection when engaged on combat matters, and only resuming it once these had been completed.