uncle bill Posted 28 May , 2008 Share Posted 28 May , 2008 Hi I've been talking with a French lady whose grandfather served with the New Zealander's in the Great War. She is desperate to find out more. All they have is a photo where you can see what looks like a NZ cap badge, plus the cap badge itself. It is not a battalion cap badge but a general service type with the fern, NZ and a scroll with 'onwards' from what I remember of it. His name was Sam Spencer. Any ideas on how o go forward with this? Any help would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillianzz Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 Would this be him? http://archway.archives.govt.nz/BriefDescItemSearch.do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 The only Sam Spencer I'm getting is this chap on the reserve list: Surname SPENCER Given Name Stanley Sam Category First Reserves Last NZ Address Durham House Durham St Occupation Accountant Recruiting District Christchurch No sign that he then enlisted in the NZEF. Could Sam have been a nickname? gillianzz, unfortunately that link takes you to the generic Archway/Archives NZ search page, with no actual results to be seen. Searching for either Sam or Samuel Spencer finds: SPENCER, Samuel Dowler - WW1 N/N - Army Strangely he a. has no service number, and b. is not showing up on either the nominal roll or cenotaph. It costs $25 to send away for the service record. There is then a listing for a 1980 Gisborne probate for: SPENCER Samuel Dowler - Gisborne - Retired Sheepfarmer Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle bill Posted 31 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2008 sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. Many thanks for your help. Sam is his name, the relatives are adamant about that. It alsote name on his passport. The stry goes that he turned up in a village near Doullens in the summerof 1916 on a motorbike and swept this young French girl off her feet. Sam married in England in 1914 according to the family. He did not return to England when the war ended and settled in France with the French girl, they never married but had a child together in 1921. Sam was deported to Silesia by the Germans during the 2nd World War. He died in France in the mid 1950s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 1 June , 2008 Share Posted 1 June , 2008 I had a look at Samuel Dowler Spencer’s file, which is 14 pages long and not in very good readable condition. From what you’ve said I don’t think it can be him. Samuel Dowler Spencer was born in Gisborne, New Zealand on 30th May 1898, which would have made him too young to be eligible to join up at the start of the war. He was a farmer working and living with his parents in Tologa Bay, Gisborne. His parents, Mr Samuel King Spencer and Mrs Dora Spencer (nee Green), were born in Warwickshire England. Samuel was serving in 9th Hawkes Bay Rifles and the reason he has no number is that his status is described on file as a ‘1st Volunteer’. He attested in Gisborne on 9 April 1918. He was a gunner and did go into camp at Featherston where he was hospitalised, for reasons not specified, on 20th August 1918. His next of kin at this time was Mrs Dora Spencer of Tologa Bay, Gisborne. It’s doubtful that this man would have turned up at a village near Doullens in the summer of 1916. Back to the drawing board methinks! Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle bill Posted 1 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2008 Thanks for your help Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 1 June , 2008 Share Posted 1 June , 2008 Sorry it wasn't particulary helpful! Let's know if I can assist though - it's a great story. Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 1 June , 2008 Share Posted 1 June , 2008 I can find two listings for marriages in 1914 under the name Sam Spencer. Both are in the April/May/June quarter. Sam SPENCER married Edith BELL in Keighley. Vol 9a, pg 464 Sam SPENCER married Nancy PENNETT in N. Brierley. Vol 9b, pg 21 Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 1 June , 2008 Share Posted 1 June , 2008 Hmm, let's see if I'm understanding this correctly. We have a chap in the UK prior to war breaking out and getting married there in 1914. He joins the NZEF and is pictured with an 'Onwards' badge. According to the diggerhistory site: The "Onward" hat badge & collar dogs started life as the NZ Expeditionary Force badge with matching collar dogs. This was later replaced by the badge originally created for the British Section of the NZEF. Although the Unit was one of the shortest lived Units of all time it's badge went on to make history. There were several variations of the wreath, oak-leaves (originally) and ferns (later). The British Section of the NZEF was formed by New Zealanders living in England and, with a strength of 7 Officers and 233 men sailed for Egypt on 12 December 1914. It was dissolved the following day and the men were absorbed into the Army Service Corps and an Engineer Field Company. Their "Onward" badge went on to become the general service badge of the NZEF & 2NZEF Would that add up to our Sam Spencer being one of those 7 Officers and 233 men? If so, is there a separate list of them somewhere? They don't appear to have had a separate service number prefix... Did the onwards badge in the photo have oak-leaves or fern-leaves? (Are you able to check?) Also, did those men who joined the British section of the NZEF have to be from NZ? Is there anything else to connect him to being a kiwi besides the photo? Did he say that was where he was from? Did his passport have a place of birth on it? (Not that that would necessarily help, seeing as so many of the NZEF were born in Britain, anyway.) Allie attempting to think outside the box (and probably failing dismally) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 1 June , 2008 Share Posted 1 June , 2008 I found two versions of the men who were in the original 1914 'British Section of the NZEF' on Sooty's excellent site. NZ Archives version NZ Defence Department Archives version Unfortunately there isn't a Spencer on either list. Sooty also lists men who enlisted in the NZEF in the UK from 1915 onwards. However, it's still a work in progress and also doesn't contain any men named Spencer. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle bill Posted 4 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2008 Thanks again everyone. I'll ask the family for a close up of the badge. The badge that I saw had fern leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil5856 Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 I can help as I'm also a friend of the family. Photo attached Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 13 June , 2008 Share Posted 13 June , 2008 Thanks for that, Neil. I'm looking through hat badges and finding it difficult to find a potential match. It doesn't resemble the British section 'Onward' badge to me... It looks more like the 'Expeditionary force' version with the way the bottom of the 'ribbon' - with the wording on it - curves. But even that seems to have more empty space in the centre of the badge than is visible in the photo. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 13 June , 2008 Share Posted 13 June , 2008 One thing that strikes me about that photo is that the chap is not wearing collar dogs. We had the same uniorms as the BEF (unlike the Australians whose uniforms were slightly different), but we tended to have hat badges and collar dogs specific to regiments/reinforcements (the reinforcement badges in particular were not 'official' but were accepted by the Powers That Be), whereas I've not really seen many photos of soldiers in the BEF wearing collar dogs... and virtually none of NZEF men without them. Edit Okay, have now found a few! Did the BEF wear them all the way through the war? Because I've seen quite a number of pictures of men without them. (Hence my comment.) I've got a sneaky feeling that photo is of someone in the BEF, not NZEF. If so, I can only find one MIC for Sam Spencer in the BEF who was a corporal. Spencer, Sam West Yorkshire Regiment 30192 Acting Corporal Labour Corps 10637 Acting Corporal However, there are a couple of S Spencers: Medal card of Spencer, S Corps: Norfolk Regiment Regiment No: 443 Rank: Lance Corporal Medal card of Spencer, S G Corps: Army Service Corps Regiment No: S4/038964 Rank: Corporal (also London Regiment 474645 Corporal) Also, I wonder what that is on his shoulder (left side of the photo)? Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil5856 Posted 13 June , 2008 Share Posted 13 June , 2008 Hi Allie, Thank you very much for your help. I think you have found the right Sam (nb. not Samuel) Spencer with the West Yorkshires. He was from Cleckheaton. I have seen the 'Onward' cap badge that the family has, and it's pretty clear to me that it's not the one in the photograph. Could it be the West Yorkshire's badge in the photo? I think the 'Onward' badge is perhaps a souvenir, and thus, a red herring. There's nothing else that connects him to NZEF. As for the thing on his shoulder - I'll have another look just to try to work out whether it's actually something in the background!! Thanks Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 13 June , 2008 Share Posted 13 June , 2008 Unfortunately, I think the West Yorkshire's hat badge featured a horse and looked nothing at all like the pictured badge. Unless the badge varied depending on battalion? Or was there one for the Labour Corps? Might pay to put the photo up in the uniforms, badges etc sub-forum to see if someone can identify it without the NZEF cloud hanging over the thread? Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil5856 Posted 13 June , 2008 Share Posted 13 June , 2008 Thanks Allie, Good idea. I've done that. Would also be interesting to see what his medal card says. Thanks Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linge Posted 14 June , 2008 Share Posted 14 June , 2008 The Medal Index Card for Acting Corporal, 30192, West Yorkshire Regiment, Labour Corps 10637 The back of the card has the following: Applying for medals 19/11/22 Address 98, Rue de Cercamps Frevent Pas de Calais France Regards Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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