4th Division History

[Michelle Young]

Does anyone have this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-4th-British-Infantry-Division/dp/1905006152/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1288291455&sr=1-3-fkmr0

It is a fair bit to shell out- if anyone has it, is it worth it or should I try to get it via inter library loan?

Many thanks, Michelle

[armourersergeant]

Michelle,

I assume this is a modern book? I seem to recall being told that someone was in the process of writing a 4th div history but had missed it coming out...bit pricey, I would try a loan rather than risk that much!!!!

Regards

Arm

[Alan Tucker]

I have just ordered a copy. London Press are sort of self-publishing. Cannot find anything about the author - Graham P Kingston. Look forward to what i has on 10th Bde - particularly 1/Royal Warwicks. Over 600 pages.

[Michelle Young]

I will await your review Alan and welcome your thoughts.

Michelle

[armourersergeant]

and me.... interesting to hear what he writes about Snow and his time in command.

regards

Arm

[Paul Reed]

Interesting, as I had always wondered why a history of this unit had never been written. Shame there isn't more about the book; must say for a book that was published in 2008 it has remained 'hidden' for a long time!

[lostinspace]

Hello all,

Decided to go ahead and buy this book ($106.20 from Barnes and Noble, free postage), haven't read it yet but thought I would share some basic information for anyone thinking about purchasing it. The book is 627 pages long, has one illustration (Thomas D'Oyly Snow) and a few maps sprinkled here and there, it is published by the London Press with a copyright date of 2006, the introduction is written by Richard Snow, grandson of T. D'O. Snow but there doesn't seem to be any information about the author (G.P. Kingston). A quick glance reveals that the page notes are not really footnotes but additional information about places, people and events described in the main text (but not attributed to a specific source) although there is an occasional reference to a specific war diary. The history itself ends on page 430 with the rest of the book consisting of appendices: Appendix I, primary sources (war diaries), Appendix II, a few personalities are briefly described - Snow, Hunter-Weston, Haldane, Rawlinson, Montgomery, Bairnsfather, Elkington and Carton De Wiart, Appendix III, changes in the OOB, Appendix IV-VIII, Orders and Reports (pp 455-622), covers each year of the war with Divisional and Brigade reports on major and minor actions by 4 Division. Appendix IX lists the divisional V.C.'s. The Bibliography is very short, four books and a website (on the Elkington family) and the index is also very short, names but no help with places, units, locations etc.

The pages devoted to each year of the war (in the main text): 1914 (124), 1915, (85), 1916, (59), 1917, (89), 1918, (67) and Demobilisation, (2).

Regards,

Dave

[Alan Tucker]

I should have posted this before. It is not much use for following a particular battalion in 4th Division. I have tested this out with the 1/Warwicks. It is OK for reference on brigades and the division itself.I am not ecstastic about it but6 it is OK for reference despite the exorbitant cost.

[Michelle Young]

Dave and Alan

Many thanks for your input, much appreciated.

Michelle

[armourersergeant]

I think this must be the book I was told about as Richard said he was writing an introduction to a divisional history.

Does the author draw any conclusions re Snow's performance in charge of 4th division?

Regards

Arm

[lostinspace]

Had a quick peek (it's a Christmas present from my wife) and as far as I could tell, just skimming the pages up to the Marne crossing, there doesn't appear to be any analysis of Snow's period in command. As Alan described, it's pretty much a straight forward tactical description of the battles fought by 4 Division (at brigade level). The Introduction's only reference is that " Like many wartime leaders, he was the subject of considerable criticism, some of which may not be justified.", the short biography found under Appendix II, "Commanding Profiles", is an almost word-for- word copy of the Introduction. I can give you more in-depth coverage after Christmas!

Regards,

Dave

[armourersergeant]

Thanks Dave.

I would be grateful for anything you get and of course after Xmas will do.

I would be interested if he comments on his pre war experiences and the work he and Edmonds did.

Regards

Arm

[Alan Tucker]

I don't know anything about Snow's command of 4th Division 1912-outbreak of war but his operational command in wartime was very limited in time.The Division made a delayed start for France after moving to York and did not leave Southampton until about August 22 1914. By sometime in September he had fallen off his horse during the advance to the Aisne and, after recovery, took over 27th Division. In the 4th Division period the Division arrived on the left of the British line as the retreat from Le Cateau began so did not have a particular tactical role as it was forced back to the Marne. 10th Brigade did 260 miles in 22 days.

[armourersergeant]

I don't know anything about Snow's command of 4th Division 1912-outbreak of war but his operational command in wartime was very limited in time.The Division made a delayed start for France after moving to York and did not leave Southampton until about August 22 1914. By sometime in September he had fallen off his horse during the advance to the Aisne and, after recovery, took over 27th Division. In the 4th Division period the Division arrived on the left of the British line as the retreat from Le Cateau began so did not have a particular tactical role as it was forced back to the Marne. 10th Brigade did 260 miles in 22 days.

Thanks Alan. I am just after any comments/observations to agree or contradict my own research. It does not seem to be that sort of book though.

Regards

Arm

[lostinspace]

Hi Arm,

Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, tried to send you a pm but apparently your 'in' box is full. There is really not much to add since my last post, Snow is mentioned only a few times up to the fall from his horse and then in notes which indicate that he went on to command 27 Division and then a corps, nothing in depth at all. Have to say though that the book has a very detailed description of the retreat and the fighting on the Aisne and since my particular interest is in that period it was worth the money (half the book covers 1914-15).

Regards,

Dave

[Skipman]

Glad I found this thread. It still seems an awfully expensive book, hardly worth the £59.00 price tag. I'm only really interested in the 10th Brigade from August 1918 to the end of October 1918 and wondered if this book added anything that can't be found in the Battalion, Brigade and Divisional diaries.

Can anyone find a cheaper copy, or another 4th Divisional, or 10th Infantry Brigade history?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/History-4th-British-Infantry-Division/dp/1905006152

Mike

[lostinspace]

Hi Mike,

Kingston's book covers August through November in twenty-seven pages, and the section on "Orders and Reports" contains three short items: "Description of River Ecaillon", "Orders for assistance for civilians" and "Orders about disorderly conduct". To be honest, if I had been able to download all the war diaries for Fourth Division ten years ago, I would never have considered paying that much money for this book.

Dave

[Skipman]

20 minutes ago, lostinspace said:

Hi Mike,

Kingston's book covers August through November in twenty-seven pages, and the section on "Orders and Reports" contains three short items: "Description of River Ecaillon", "Orders for assistance for civilians" and "Orders about disorderly conduct". To be honest, if I had been able to download all the war diaries for Fourth Division ten years ago, I would never have considered paying that much money for this book.

Dave

 

Many thanks David, that's kind of what I thought. Much appreciated.

 

Mike