petet Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 I have a copy of a "Gallantry" card No 538361 Pte H Thomas 2/6th London Field Ambulance RAMC in recognition of his gallant conduct. I understand that his name was Henry A Thomas. I am working on the basis that 538361 is his service number but I can't find a medal index card for him. Any thoughts, or does anyone have any information on him which will provide a start point for me. My normal area of research is WWII RAF so this enquiry is outside my comfort zone .... so any help would be much appreciated. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rksimpson Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Hi Are you sure about the number, the only person with that number is - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2305171 Can you post the card? regards Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 17 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Thanks for the response. The number is as shown on the card but, like you, I can't find anything that matches, or comes close (hence this thread). I have been advised that his full name is Henry Arthur Thomas but still no luck. The card was issued by 60th London Division for gallantry at Beersheba on 31st October 1917. (He was in 2/6th London Field Ambulance RAMC). Is there any way of tracking him using this information? Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Have you gone through MiC's for that name, using full name or initial and found any RAMC men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 17 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2015 I will have another try and see what turns up, but the relatives involved in the research have also searched ancestry and come up with the same problem (ie we just can't find him) Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Did he survive the war? The number might be a reference for the card? You could try looking for similar numbers in RAMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 17 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Yes, he did survive, which obviously makes the search more difficult. I will try searching for numbers around the 538361 number to see if this brings up anything, but still drawing a blank using searches on H, HA, Henry A Thomas etc Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 The only man by this name I can find was numbered 24774 RAMC both on Ancestry MICs and the N A Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Thanks again for your help; I will follow that number up. It's probably a bit of a long shot but I will see if any of the relevant war diaries record his "gallant conduct" on 31st October 1917; with a bit of luck it may show his service number. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Can you post the card. I've not seen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 I have created an album in the Members Gallery called HA Thomas and added the card to the album Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 I eventually found the album here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?app=gallery&category=4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 It's the first I have seen. It looks as if the number could be his service number. Were men refered to by number , rank then name or rank name and number.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 It would appear that the MICs for the RAMC do not show the renumbering of the TF which would imply one would be looking for an original service number. 538228 Ellis's records survive and he was originally 1830, which his MIC shows, http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A000500-02153/2973623?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsln%3dellis%26_F8007A65%3d1830%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3d3t2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults . If their renumbering was done sequentially then one would be looking for a MIC not far off 1830, such as Harry A Thomas, http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001541-00448/4635599?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsln%3dthomas%26_F8007A65%3d2075%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3d3t2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 I have a copy of a "Gallantry" card No 538361 Pte H Thomas 2/6th London Field Ambulance RAMC in recognition of his gallant conduct. I understand that his name was Henry A Thomas. I am working on the basis that 538361 is his service number but I can't find a medal index card for him. Any thoughts, or does anyone have any information on him which will provide a start point for me. Pete You have come across one of the joys of the 1917 Territorial Force renumbering scheme. We know that 538361 H. Thomas, from the gallantry card, was a Territorial soldier with the 2/6th London Field Ambulance and we can see that his 6-digit number was issued from the 6th London Field Ambulance block of numbers 538001 - 540000. Prior to that renumbering in 1917 he would have had a 4-digit number and I've seen it with other Territorial Force RAMC Medal rolls where it's that 4-digit number that has been used on the Medal Index Cards and Medal Rolls. Thankfully there is usually some order to the renumbering and we can use other existing numbers to deduce what it might have been.... 2051 - 538345 2202 - 538372 2242 - 538377 2244 - 538379 His 6-digit number falls between those issued to 2051 and 2202 so it's likely that you're looking for a 4-digit RAMC number beginning with 20** and after 2051. Searching the Medal Rolls and Cards I have found just one that fits that bill and it belongs to 2075 Harry A. Thomas, the RAMC Medal Roll (WO329/2086 page 4813) entry confirms his full name and number as 2075 Harry Arthur Thomas. If I was a betting man my money would be on this soldier being your Henry Arthur Thomas. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Strange how one gets an echo on the forum, I think I posted him as the most likely candidate. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Strange how one gets an echo on the forum, I think I posted him as the most likely candidate.Then there's a good chance that it's him. Two independent pieces of research gets the same result...not strange at all...but hey, if it's the 'glory' you want "Well done you". I must learn not to waste my time..... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Thanks once again for all your responses; they are very much appreciated. I will leave the relatives of HA Thomas to follow up the latest suggestions and get back to you if it turns out to be a blind alley, but it sounds like we have found our man thanks to your good selves. Regards (and thanks again) Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 I would like to extend this thread to cover another serviceman that the same family are researching. RJ Thomas died of his wounds on 13th November 1917 having fought with 1/28th County of London Battalion (Artist's Rifles). Research suggests that the Battalion was with 190th Brigade in 63rd (Royal Naval) Division at the time (at the second battle of Passchendaele). Can anyone advise on the location shown on the second document that I have added to the HA Thomas Album in the Members Gallery . Also, would the location represent where he was wounded or where he died. Again, any help would be very much appreciated Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 "Discharged having died of wounds, received in action , France, at 47 Casualty Clearing Station" An unusual use of the word "Discharged". Usually used in reference to a living patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Thanks for deciphering the information for me; your help is much appreciated Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Hi Pete. If you haven't picked up on it, it is well worth having a look at this topic http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=206563&hl= In post #4 there is a link to a free to download book. In the book there is a roll of honour on which (page 26), it says that Robert was wounded on the 10th. This is a bit odd though, in that the Battalion war diary http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43112_3119_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_3119_0-00454 has them at Tunnellers [sic] Camp (map ref: F.27.a.0.5) "Training & Re-organizing" from 6th to 10th November 1917. The diary entry for the following day reads "March to WINNEZEELE where it was joined by Details". It's also a bit strange that Soldiers' Effects http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6117462_0129-00120/308837?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26_F8007A65%3d764727%26_F8007A65_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults has his death given as at 37th CCS. I think though that given the "historical information" about the cemetery he's buried in http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/15300/DOZINGHEM%20MILITARY%20CEMETERY, the error probably lies in the Soldiers' Effects record. The locations of respective CCS's is given on The Long, Long,Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/ccs.htm. The site also gives an explanation of the casualty evacuation chain http://www.1914-1918.net/wounded.htm. Depending on how much context your friends want about his service abroad (I guess that from the image that you posted, they've already got a copy of his service record), in addition to the Battalion diary(for the period of his service), it might be worth looking at the Brigade diary http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43112_3116_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing and http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43849_3117_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing; the divisional HQ diary http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43849_3117_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_3093_0-00000, http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43849_3117_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_3094_0-00000, and http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43849_3117_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43849_3095_0-00000; and the A&Q diary http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60779/43849_3117_0-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_3098_0-00000. These diaries typically contain (as appendices) a lot of information that is not included in the Battalion diary such as operational orders, maps, operational reports, etc. If they don't currently have access to Ancestry' I understand that it usually free at local libraries. Alternatively, they can be downloaded from the National Archives http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/war-diaries-ww1.htm, but it costs £3.30 a go. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 19 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2015 Chris Thanks for spending the time providing all the details and links; I had already accessed some of the information but I will follow up the other links and try to put all the pieces of the jigsaw together today. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 23 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2015 Re: RJ Thomas Having read through the various diaries, it does appear that 1/28th Battalion were training at the time of his "wounding" on 10th November 1917, although his service record shows that he "died from wounds received in action in France" [on 13th November]. Is "in action" standard terminology for anyone who died in France, irrespective of whether it was whilst in training or on one of the lines. His service record shows that he was also wounded in July 1917 (again at a time when the Battalion was training) and he was at various Casualty Clearing Stations for over a month. Was it normal for soldiers to be wounded / killed by enemy action whilst at training camps or can I assume that the injuries were caused by "friendlies" (on both occasions) Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petet Posted 26 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2015 Re: HA Thomas HA Thomas' service record did not survive the WWII fire and I am trying to establish when he was mobilised. I am not sure if his original number (2075) was allocated by the RAMC or by 6th Field Ambulance (or by any other unit). Could anyone advise so that when I plough through the Ancestry Service Records to see if I can find adjacent numbers I know what unit I should be looking for. Re: RJ Thomas Is anyone able to help with the question(s) in my previous post? Any help on either enquiry would be much appreciated. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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