Shotguns

[KIRKY]

Hi

can anyone tell me if shotguns were ever used on Western Front?

It would seem like an ideal trench weapon especially if shortened?

Tony

[NIGEL]

Kirky

This one thing that got me interested in certain weapons, the shotgun cartridge was used and is used to do a variety of things a lot you would never think of.

In WW2 it was used to sever barage balloon cables on the front of a bomber, and also start all types of engines.

The shotgun as a weapon is a perfect up to 50 yard devastating killing weapon for use at close quater combat, so i would be surprised if it wasnt used

[andigger]

I thought they were made illegal by the Geneva convention for use in war.

Andy

[PhilB]

I thought they were made illegal by the Geneva convention for use in war.

Andy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That I don`t know, Andy. I assumed it wasn`t used because it was an "officers only" weapon! Officers shoot the birds, peasants beat the undergrowth sort of thing - like swords and walking sticks. I seem to recall a previous thread (I can`t find it now) that claimed shotguns have been used in recent conflicts, so perhaps they`re not anti-convention? Phil B

[Malcolm]

The Americans used Shotguns in trench raids etc and the Germans did complain that it was against the Geneva Convention. I don't know what the outcome was.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/shotguns/us_shotguns_m-q.htm

to quote the above link.

M-1917 Trench Gun

Notes: This World War 1 weapon was designed for close-in trench fighting – hence the name. It is basically a Winchester 97 pump-action shotgun with a bayonet lug attached and a perforated heat shield above the barrel to facilitate bayonet fighting. They are not seen much today, but other weapons of this type have been made in other parts of the world.

Remington were producing a gun coded 11R but it was not ready before the War ended.

Aye

Malcolm

[PhilB]

A further thought! Who do you reckon might have benefitted from having a shotgun in WW1? Going over the top, I`d probably go for the SMLE and for trench clearing - shotgun, bayonet or grenade? Mmmmmm...! Phil B

[NIGEL]

How would a shotgun be illegal when you could use shrapnel or antipersonel shells from a artillary piece.

The cartridge used to kill men wouldnt be the same cartridge as you would use to down a bird

[andigger]

How would a shotgun be illegal when you could use shrapnel or antipersonel shells from a artillary piece.

The cartridge used to kill men wouldnt be the same cartridge as you would use to down a bird

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember the Geneva conventions start from the premise that they attempt to make war more humane. From that contradiction in terms what logic can follow?

Andy

[NIGEL]

A further thought! Who do you reckon might have benefitted from having a shotgun in WW1? Going over the top, I`d probably go for the SMLE and for trench clearing - shotgun, bayonet or grenade? Mmmmmm...!   Phil B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you was in a trench and met your enemy, with a rifle you may miss, with a shotgun in the width of the trench and the range, you wont miss and he wont get up again

[harribobs]

Notes: This World War 1 weapon was designed for close-in trench fighting – hence the name. It is basically a Winchester 97 pump-action shotgun with a bayonet lug attached and a perforated heat shield above the barrel to facilitate bayonet fighting. They are not seen much today, but other weapons of this type have been made in other parts of the world.

a very helpful gentleman from the royal armouries in leeds showed me one of these shotguns quite a few years ago, he was telling me the story about the germans trying to say they were illegal (gas and flamethrowers being perfectly ok )

[NIGEL]

You would need those heatshields aswell, i remember doing a 75 bird sporting with my mate once, you shout pull once and 75 clays come at you at any time whenever, and our gun barrells were that hot you in no way could touch them.

[carninyj]

Shotguns were used by the US in WW1 and are certainly are used by modern armies, notably by the US in Vietnam. In addition to the usual buckshot, O or OO, flechettes have been developed. They have the ability to penetrate some types of body armour.

Carninyj

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/ammo/s..._flechette.html

[CROONAERT]

Shotguns were used by the US in WW1 and are certainly are used by modern armies, notably by the US in Vietnam. 

...and by the British Army in Malaya.

Although I never shot one myself, we were once shown a demonstration of the modern combat shotgun with "solid" shot (plastic "flight", with steel head) being fired at close range into the radiator of a car. You could find the remains of the "shot" (still relatively intact) in the boot!

Dave.

[carninyj]

Followed up my quick Google on the subject. Think you might find this interesting.

Carninyj

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearm...uns_history.php

[NIGEL]

A man once told me he shot one of these at a telegraph pole, it didnt go through but the pole shook

[NIGEL]

sorry

[MikB]

Hesketh-Prichard says in "Sniping In France":-

"I was always very much afraid all through the war that, having started poison gas, the Germans might start using shotguns loaded with buckshot for work between the trenches. Had they done so, patrolling would have become a horrible business; but I suppose they were restrained by the fact that such weapons are not allowed by the Geneva Convention, or that the British Isles have such a supply of guns and cartridges that the advantage would not remain long upon their side. As it was, things were much more satisfactory, for there was plenty of excitement out in No Man's Land, what with machinegun bullets and rifle fire, without the added horror of a charge of small shot in the face."

It obviously never even occurred to him that the British might start up with such a "horrible business". There was a sense of honour then that might be hard to find now.

Regards,

MikB

[NIGEL]

If you had buckshot in the face you wouldnt have a head.

At 40yds 9 buckshot you may have 2 shot in a target the size of a football, less than that i should imagine if you got 3 in your face it would take your head off.

The size of one 9 buckshot is about the size of a .38caliber bullet

[Somme1916]

As for shotguns being used in modern war, the US Army still has shotguns in its inventory. We also have a shotgun style round for our M203 grenade launchers.

[MikB]

If you had buckshot in the face you wouldnt have a head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we all know that, at the ranges typical of No Man's Land patrol clashes, it wouldn't b100dy matter what shot size you used, and I expect H-P knew it too - he was an experienced hunter of all types of game. I reckon he was thinking of those who'd have to bring back and identify the bodies of their mates.

Regards,

MikB

[Ozzie]

A link refering to shotguns in WW1.

http://www.lighthorse.org.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1215

[P.B.]

As many posts have mentioned, the only significant use of the shotgun in combat in WWI was by the US Army. The attached (rather dark) image is from a militaria dealer's catalogue from the early '90s, and shows one of these "Trench Shotguns" with the bayonet attached. It should be made clear that traditional double-barreled shotguns were not used -all the issued models were Remington or Winchester 5-shot capacity pump-action types.

The Germans did indeed protest about the issue of shotguns to US troops, and the official line was that they would be used to either shoot german grenades out of the air (clay-pidgeon style!) or they would only be issued to US soldiers guarding PoW cages. I suppose this is a bit like saying that WP grenade is only used for signalling purposes....!

We must remember, however, that the US police have a long tradition of using shotguns, and that prison guards in the US were also routinely issued them, so it wasn't much of a quantum leap (either practically or morally) for the US Army to issue them to some of it's soldiers. I'm not sure if they were also issued to US troops prior to their involvement in WWI, perhaps in Mexico?

Personally, I think the idea of one weapon being "humane" and another not being is a little absurd. If I was prowling around enemy trenches I'd much rather have a 5-shot Remington pump than a studded club any day of the week. As another post mentioned, the shotgun was used very effectively by the British Army in Malaya -Sgt Turnbull of the SAS (Malayan Scouts) was famous for his skill with the pump-action shotgun, using it in one encounter to dispatch the notorious terrorist known as "Baby Killer", an action for which he received the Military Medal. More recently, the shotgun has found favour with police and counter-terrorist forces in urban situations, where it's usefulness as a close-quarter weapon, combined with it's ability to fire a variety of cartridges (Hatton rounds to take out doors by blasting the hinges, etc) make it particularly useful.

I hope this has been of some interest, all the best

Paul.

[MikB]

Personally, I think the idea of one weapon being "humane" and another not being is a little absurd.  If I was prowling around enemy trenches I'd much rather have a 5-shot Remington pump than a studded club any day of the week. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You might think that. But H-P had been in the business he wrote about. Whatever any modern writer might have been in, it wasn't like that.

Regards,

MikB

[NIGEL]

You might think that. But H-P had been in the business he wrote about. Whatever any modern writer might have been in, it wasn't like that.

Regards,

MikB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you mean Mike??????????

[P.B.]

You might think that. But H-P had been in the business he wrote about. Whatever any modern writer might have been in, it wasn't like that.

Regards,

MikB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Hesketh-Pritchard was refering to how horrific the effects of being hit with a shotgun blast were (and I whole-heartedly agree with him) where I was commenting more on the effectiveness of the shotgun as a close-quarter-battle weapon -that is, if you're clearing enemy positions a pump-action shotgun (or indeed a supply of grenades, or .45 auto) would be more useful than a fighting knife, trench club or sharpened entrenching tool.

All the best

Paul.