Victor Grayson's War Service

[BeppoSapone]

Victor Grayson, MP for Colne Valley, has been described as 'the only person ever elected to Westminster as a socialist'. He was MP for Colne Valley. Grayson won as an Independent Socialist candidate in a by-election held in July 1907. However, in 1914:

"Grayson shocked his radical friends by supporting the First World War. He gave recruiting speeches and wrote articles urging young men to join the armed forces. In 1915 Grayson travelled to New Zealand where he had been offered work as an actor. However, this was not a success and he joined the New Zealand army. He was sent to the Western Front and on 12 October 1917 was badly wounded."

In September 1920, and back in England Grayson went "missing" from a house on the banks of the Thames, and many and varied stories have been told re: what happened to him.

However, does anyone know anything more of his military career?

[BeppoSapone]

I am reviving this old thread about Victor Grayson of the NZEF.

I never got a reply when I first posted it, but hope to have more luck this time.

I am thinking of sending off to New Zealand for Victors' papers. Has anyone done this?

If so, what did you get?

[squirrel]

I sent off to New Zealand for a soldier's papers and got a full set back in two weeks - just sent his full name, number and what I knew about him.

[BeppoSapone]

I sent off to New Zealand for a soldier's papers and got a full set back in two weeks - just sent his full name, number and what I knew about him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did the same, and am very pleased with what I got. I have posted details of Lt Fred Ellisdon and his identity disc on this forum.

You are allowed one "Freebie" a year, and the next year starts in a month or two. I was thinking of asking for the papers of Victor Grayson, but I don't want to 'waste' my free go.

I suppose what I really need to know is how much more 'free' than the UK is New Zealand? Will I actually get Victor Graysons' papers, or will they be 'weeded' or closed for 75 years etc etc

[christine liava'a]

Surname GRAYSON

Given Name Victor

Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3

Regimental Number 45001

Rank Lance-Corpl

Next of Kin Title Mrs R

Next of Kin Surname GRAYSON

Next of Kin Relationship Wife

Next of Kin Address C/- Mrs Stevenson Sales Court Aurora Terrace

Wellington

Roll Roll 62

Page Page 10

Occupation Lecturer

[Max]

Here is a picture of Grayson and quite a detailed Bio, unfortunately not about his war service.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TUgrayson.htm

[BeppoSapone]

On 1st July I emailed to New Zealand, requesting Victor Graysons records. They arrived this morning.

As you may know the fate of Victor Grayson remains unknown:

"There has been much speculation on what happened to him; it is generally agreed that he disappeared in suspicious circumstances on September 28, 1920, shortly after he had been beaten up on the Strand. It was speculated he had been murdered to prevent him revealing evidence of corruption, although the most comprehensive biography by David Clark points to his possible survival to the 1950's. Some of Grayson's most fanatical supporters insist that he was the only true socialist ever to sit in Parliament."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Grayson

I have not read David Clark's work, and wonder if anyone who has done so could post the evidence that Grayson survived to the 1950s?

New Zealand Personnel Archives would probably agree with David Clark. Records state that Victor Grayson's WW1 'pair' were claimed on 25th August 1939, one month short of 19 years after he disappeared!

Does anyone know if New Zealand Archives are likely to retain details of Victor Grayson's 1939 address and, more importantly, are they obliged to release it?

[christine liava'a]

Is there a receipt for the medals in the personal file? Does it not say something about who claimed them, and the address they were sent to?

NZDF Military Archives probably has nothing except what is in the file.

Archives NZ probably has nothing at all- this was no concern of theirs.

[BeppoSapone]

Is there a receipt for the medals in the personal file? Does it not say something about who claimed them, and the address they were sent to?

NZDF Military Archives probably has nothing except what is in the file.

Archives NZ probably has nothing at all- this was no concern of theirs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Christine

Thanks for your reply.

In answer to your query. There is no mention of who claimed the medals, not even a (wife) or (mother).

Also, there is no address given except the one from 1918. Although here it says "Left New Zealand" and has the address being c/o Thomas Cook, Pall Mall.

Elsewhere in the papers it says that Victor Grayson, unfit due to wounds, took his discharge in England.

[christine liava'a]

I think you will need to trace Mrs R Grayson. She would seem to be the only one who might have known something.

Why was he not looked for by the police?

[BeppoSapone]

I think you will need to trace Mrs R Grayson. She would seem to be the only one who might have known something.

Why was he not looked for by the police?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christine

I think Victor Grayson was looked for by the police. How hard they looked is another matter. Then, as now, people do just 'disappear' and start new lives. I think it is legal, as long as you are not 'wanted' by the police in the first place.

I have been 'googling', trying to find some mention of Graysons wife. Her first name was Ruth and her maiden name was Nightingale. There was also a daughter, born in London in April 1914. No luck yet.

However I did find a site that claims that Victor Grayson was Winston Churchill's 'secret' brother:

http://thomasslemen.tripod.com/royals.html

That's the internet for you!

[Guest Simon Bull]

Beppo

Very intriguing.

What set you on the trail of this chap?

What do you think he did after the War?

[BeppoSapone]

Beppo

Very intriguing.

What set you on the trail of this chap?

What do you think he did after the War?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simon

I once read a book about how he "vanished" after serving in the New Zealand Army in WW1. Ever since that time I have been intrigued by him, and what could have happened.

Recently, in this forum, I heard that WW1 NZ soldiers papers could be claimed. So I gave it a go.

I suppose the next step would be to get hold of this "comprehensive biography by David Clark" and see the evidence that "points to his possible survival to the 1950's". Not sure about the Churchill thing, it's just something I found whilst looking for information about Victor Grayson's wife Ruth.

I intend to contact NZ records on the off chance that they tell me who they released the medals to. I suppose if they say 'Ruth Grayson', thats it?

[Guest Simon Bull]

Thanks for the information Beppo.

[BeppoSapone]

I suppose the next step would be to get hold of this "comprehensive biography by David Clark" and see the evidence that "points to his possible survival to the 1950's". Not sure about the Churchill thing, it's just something I found whilst looking for information about Victor Grayson's wife Ruth.

I intend to contact NZ records on the off chance that they tell me who they released the medals to. I suppose if they say 'Ruth Grayson', thats it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have heard from the New Zealand Defence Force, in reply to my query about exactly who claimed Victor Grayson's medals in 1939.

It seems as if they have a "standard letter" that they must send out to anyone who picks up on this point. It was first sent out to a researcher at Granada Television in July 1991. I will scan the important part of this letter and put it at the end of this post.

I have also obtained a copy of Dr Clark's book on Victor Grayson, and will post more in due course. I can say now that Victor Grayson's wife Ruth was not alive to have been the person that claimed his medals just before WW2. She died soon after their second child was born in 1918. The child also died.

[BeppoSapone]

I have heard from the New Zealand Defence Force, in reply to my query about exactly who claimed Victor Grayson's medals in 1939.

It seems as if they have a "standard letter" that they must send out to anyone who picks up on this point. It was first sent out to a researcher at Granada Television in July 1991. I will scan the important part of this letter and put it at the end of this post.

I have also obtained a copy of Dr Clark's book on Victor Grayson, and will post more in due course. I can say now that Victor Grayson's wife Ruth was not alive to have been the person that claimed his medals just before WW2. She died soon after their second child was born in 1918. The child also died.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have now looked at Dr Clark's book on Victor Grayson.

It seems quite likely that, in the days before television, Victor Grayson simply moved to a part of the country where his face was not known and, possibly, changed his name.

Dr Clark mentions Grayson's Canadian relatives believing that he could have been killed in the bombing of London.

He also mentions several 'sightings' of Grayson and speculates about what finally became of him.

For example there is mention of a man called Victor Garston, living in Wilmington Square Gardens, London WC1 as late as the summer of 1948. He spoke with a slight Lancashire accent, but claimed to be from Liverpool and to have served in the Australian Army in WW1, and that he was wounded in France.

Of course, this is all speculation. Short of documentation being discovered or released we will never really know.

It seems likely that Victor Grayson himself claimed his WW1 medals from the New Zealander's in London in August 1939. Either that or someone claiming to be him did so, but why bother?

They would also need to have known Grayson's service details AND know that they had never been claimed. They would also need to have been confident enough of their facts to turn up in person to collect the medals.

Here is what Dr Clark has to say about claiming the medals. Any comments?

[PFF]

Don t Know if this helps but-just checked the Australian War Memorial website-there are at least 3 "Garstons" on the Nominal Roll but no Victor Garston.

A thought came to me-prehaps some researcher can check the London City

Directory/and Telephone Directories for 1920 and 1939-if there is no listing before 1920 for a "V. GARSTON"-possibly Grayson is GARSTON. Also any mention of

"Garston" Living after 1949? If he was married-prehaps mention of his widow in

City/Telephone Directories after 1949?

Prehaps the clue that he dispaared on his own was the claimings of his war

decorations in 1939-who else would have an interest in reclaiming them after all those years?????

[BeppoSapone]

There is not likely to be any mention of Victor Garston. I am sure that Dr Clark would have found it if there was.

"Victor Garston" was described as being a single man in poor health. He was also living in some sort of hostel, just a step above skid row. He had problems with drink and was pawning his "VG" inscribed cuff links, the last items of value that he owned.

My own view is that this is what became of Victor Grayson, but I doubt that we will ever know for sure.

[BeppoSapone]

Continued.

[Guest Simon Bull]

Fascinating story Beppo.

I don't suppose we shall ever know what any real degree of certainty what happened to Grayson, but it does look likely that Garston was Grayson.

[aeroraider]

I am reviving an old post to add some new information.

I recently obtained a small collection of Grayson material including the original issue letter for Grayson's service medals. The medals were issued to his sister in 1939.

[Mark Hone]

The disappearance of Victor Grayson is featured in the latest series of the light-hearted Radio 4 investigative series 'Punt PI'. Nothing about his war service, though. Although the conclusion is that he probably assumed another identity as a result of becoming entangled in the affairs of Maundy Gregory, they don't mention Victor Garston.

[Magnumbellum]

I think you will need to trace Mrs R Grayson. She would seem to be the only one who might have known something.

Why was he not looked for by the police?

Ruth Grayson died in 1918, two years before his last recorded sighting, so she would have had no knowledge of his diappearance. That probably accounts for VG's sister being next-of-kin for claiming his medals.

There is no evidence that, after being medically discharged (wounded) in the UK from the NZ Army, VG ever returned to New Zealand.

For the record also, after being defeated in the January 1910 General Election, VG never returned to Parliament.

[Guest]

Hello everyone. This is my first ever post on this site. I stumbled apon it while searching for information on Victor Grayson. I am one of the Canadian relatives. Victor was my great uncle. To be more specific, my grandmother Augusta Grayson was Victor's sister. I know very little about her as she died before I was born. I don't know when she left England for Canada but, my mother was born here in 1925 so it was before that. I know that Augusta went back to England to search for her brother through Scotland Yard and such. I was intrigued by the postings I've seen regarding the claiming of his war medals and I think my mother mentioned them when I was very young. I do remember handling war medals although I think they belonged to my grandfather. None of my older relatives are alive today. If there are any medals or papers, my brother has them. I am going to try and dig through the family papers hopefully this weekend. I haven't seen this stuff in nearly forty years so, who knows? I doubt there will be anything but, I will post the results if there is interest.

David Wells, Hamilton Ontario Canada

[Mark Hone]

It would be interesting to see if there is anything. I mention the mystery every year when Victor Grayson's political career crops up in my A-Level History course about early Twentieth Century Britain.