4/5th Bn. Black Watch war diary October 1916 Battle of the Somme

[cindyathome]

Are there any members out there who have a copy of the 4/5th Bn. Black Watch Royal highlanders war diary for the period of October 1916 - in particular the 25th of October and the days prior?

The battalion was engaged in the Battle of the somme. I am interested in finding out what they were doing in teh days leading up to my ancesotrs death. I'm trying to research Francis Henderson Thomson who was killed during this battle on the 25th of October SN3526.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

hope there is something out there. I am a newbie when it comes to military research and presume that most records are destroyed in relatin to his military service records. I have been trying to find something on Alexander Thomson also who served in the Salonika forces for the BMEF but coming up blank so far also. Hope someone can point me in the right direction.

My kindest regards,

Cindy from Australia

[Rob Bulloch]

Cindy.

This is an excerpt from Maj Gen Wauchope's History of the Black Watch.

While at Martinsart Wood the Battalion received a draft of officers and men who were badly wanted to to fill the ranks thinned by recent fighting, in which it lost four officers killed and nine wounded; 27 other ranks killed, 220 wounded and 30 missing a total of 13 officers and 227 other ranks. On the 22nd of October the 4th/5thth moved to the Bluffs and on the following day took over the captured trenches at Schwaben Redoubt. This tour was the worst so far experienced by the Battalion owing to the terrible weather conditions and heavy shelling, from which, in 36 hours, the 4th/5th losses amounted to well over 100. On the 25th October the Battalion moved to Senlis and again into the line at Thiepval on the 29th,after which, on November the 3rd, it moved to St Authuille Bluffs, on the 8th again into the line on the River Ancre, and on the 12th it occupied the front line at Schwaben Redoubt in preporation for an attack the following day.

The fighting during these last 6 weeks was by far the most severe the 4th/5th experienced in France. During this period the Battalion had been almost continually in action; it had taken part in two frontal attacks, in each of which the losses suffered were very heavy, amounting to nearly 40 officers and over 1000 other ranks.

I hope this is of some help Good luck with your Search. Cheers Rob.

[4thGordons]

Here is the link to the Battalion DIARY reference - it does not appear that it is available online although it can (for a price) be digitised to order - as you only want a specific bit this might be the way to go if no members have the relevant bit.

Here is the link to the Mother Site's entry on the 39th Division of which the 4/5th were part.

and link to same for the 4/5th Royal Highlanders (came into existence in 1916 with the combination of 2 Bns)

HERE is his Medal Index Card

HERE is his CWGC entry

I am sure you probably have these but just in case....

Accoring to The Somme - a day by day account" (McCarthy) the 25th October was rainy and 52f.

It looks like the 39th Div were northwest of Thiepval between Grandcourt and Authuille referred to in Gliddon as "St Perre Division" ) in the Ancre valley. South of the Ancre the Germans had constructed a network of undergrounf tunnels and defences. Elements of the 39th Div were involved in an attack (failed) here on the 21st of Oct but I do not know if the 4/5th were part of this.

one of the several Black watch experts will likely be along in a while to correct this!

Hope this is of some help

Chris

[cindyathome]

Thanks Chris & Rob for your info. So quick to reply. I was surprised at having a response so quickly. I have tripped across a lot of your replies to others actually. Thank you so much for your time and help. Taking advantage of some down time at work to do some digging about on the internet for answers to my FH questions. Cannot believe i have never seen this forum before. Its great. Thanks for your help again.

Cindy

[4thGordons]

Cindy - one other ref I forgot

Thiepval (Somme) by Michael Stedman (part of the Battleground Europe series ISBN 0-85052-473-3) has several references to the 4/5th at this period. Inc an short eyewitness extract from the attack on the Schwaben Redoubt on the 14th Oct.

Good hunting

Chris

[Tom A McCluskey]

Cindy,

Welcome to the forum and please find below the War Diary entries for the area of October you are interested in. The 4/5th Bn, The Black Watch is a composite battalion of the 4th (City of Dundee) and 5th (Angus & Dundee) battalions of The Black Watch Territorial Force, who were amalgamated early in March 1916. Your man was originally a member of the 5th Bn The Black Watch.

Anyway, here are the diary entries you are after:

4/5th Bn The Black Watch Diary Excerpts - October 1916

AUTHUILLE BLUFFS

12 Oct 1916

The Battalion moved to the AUTHUILLE BLUFFS. River ANCRE for a brief rest in preparation for attacking SCHWABEN REDOUBT in the morrow. There was a good deal of shelling about the valley, one shell going through a dugout and killing two men and wounding several others.

13 Oct 1916

The attack was postponed until the 14th

SCHWABEN REDOUBT

14 Oct 1916

The Battalion played a great part in capturing the SCHWABEN REDOUBT. A full account of the operation appears in Appendix No. 5.

WOOD POST 15/16th

The Battalion moved to WOOD POST

15 Oct 1916

Major T.D. Murray appointed 2nd in Command, vice Major G.F. Bowes-Lyon wounded. Captain R.W. McIntyre M.C. was appointed O.C. D Coy vice Captain J. A. Moffat wounded. Lieut R.A. Plimpton was appointed O.C. A Coy vice Captain McIntyre.

MARTINSART

16 Oct 1916

The Battalion moved to MARTINSART WOOD.

17 Oct 1916

Notified that the Military Cross had been awarded to 2/Lt A.L.C. Edwards (wounded in action 10/10/16)

17-22nd Oct 1916

The Battalion furnished large working parties to SCHWABEN REDOUBT the weather was bad and the men were naturally very done up having had no rest since the attack.

19 Oct 1916

A Draft of 169 ORs joined, including 95 transferred from the 7th & 8th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

20 Oct 1916

A draft of 100 OR joined. [these drafts were mainly to replace the casualties from the attack on the Schwaben Redoubt:-

4 Officers Killed

9 Officers Wounded

27 ORs Killed

220 ORs Wounded

30 ORs Missing]

22 Oct 1916

The following officers joined from home:-

2/Lieut J.O.G STUART, 5th Black Watch

2/Lieut I.O. NICOLL, 5th Black Watch

2/Lieut G.A. BUTLER, 7th Black Watch

2/Lieut D.A. GRANT, 4th Black Watch

2/Lieut W.B.D. PAUL, 7th Black Watch

2/Lieut H.G. DONALD, 4th Black Watch

2/Lieut D.W. FYFE, 7th Black Watch

2/Lieut D. BELL, 7th Black Watch

2/Lieut J. QUEKETT, 5th Black Watch

2/Lieut G. ALLISON, 6th Black Watch

2/Lieut J.J. MACKERSY, 6th Black Watch

2/Lieut J. RENNY, 6th Black Watch

AUTHUILLE BLUFFS

22-23 Oct 1916

The Battalion moved to the BLUFFS

SCHWABEN REDOUBT

23 Oct 1916

The following officer joined from the 11th Entrenching Battalion:-

2/Lieut D.C. WILSON, 4th Black Watch

The Battalion moved to the front line in the SCHWABEN REDOUBT, beyond THIEPVAL. There were no recognisable trenches, and the only shelter to be had was in the shell-holes, with which the ground was pitted. Heavy weather had made the fields a waste of mud, in which, at night, it was difficult for the most experienced runners to find their way.

23-25 Oct 1916

Hostile shell fire heavy from 2 p.m. till 9.30 p.m. and intense from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. caused many casualties, and the rigours of wet shell-holes caused much wastage through sickness in its demand on the men’s endurance and morale the present spell of trench warfare has been the most severe in the experience of the Battalion.

SENLIS

25 Oct 1916

The Battalion, on relief by the 15th Sussex Regt, moved to SENLIS CAMP. As far as can be ascertained today, the tour of trench duty now ended, cost the Battalion the following casualties and sick wastage:-

A Coy B Coy C Coy D Coy H Coy Total

Killed 3 7 4 - 1 15

Wounded 9 12 14 10 - 45

Missing 1 1 2 - 2 6

Sick 3 7 6 17 2 35

Total 16 29 24 27 5 101

One Officer to hospital sick.

26 Oct 1916

It was announced that the Military Medal had been awarded to the under mentioned for bravery in the field:-

3634 Sgt D. HUTTON, B Coy

3806 Pte D. JONES, Late B Coy

3015 Pte J. LEYS, Late A Coy

1198 Sgt Piper D. McLEOD, H Coy

2255 Cpl R. WOOD, Late H Coy

2095 Pte A FERRIER, not now with Battalion

1285 Pte C. PETRIE, not now with Battalion

2607 Pte D. SMART, not now with Battalion

2004 Pte W. HIGH, not now with Battalion

1629 Pte A. REDFORD, not now with Battalion

3085 L/Cpl J. BRISBANE, not now with Battalion

2500 Sgt A. GAMMIE, not now with Battalion

34 Sgt J.D. PETRIE, not now with Battalion

28 Oct 1916

Major T.D. MURRAY assumed temporary command of 1/1 Cambridgeshire Regt vice Major (Temp Lt. Col. E.P.A. RIDDELL, Rifle Brigade, wounded. Capt McINTYRE was appointed acting 2nd in command vice Major T.D. MURRAY

NEAR THIEPVAL

29 Oct 1916

The Battalion moved to the front line about R.19.C. The trenches were in a terribly muddy state but fortunately there was ample dug-out accommodation and although there was a good deal of hostile shelling on communication trenches, the Battalion suffered no casualties.

Cindy, I hope this is of use, and good luck with your research.

Aye

Tom McC

[cindyathome]

THanks Tom, great stuff. Whereever did you manage to find this material? I looked EVERYWHERE. Guess my seek and find skills are nowhere near as good as yours. Please let me know...getting rather frustrated with teh lack of information on my great grandfather and his family. Maybe you can give me some pointers.

thanks again

cindy

[Tom A McCluskey]

Cindy,

For a couple of years now, I have been researching the 4th and 4/5th Black Watch. I notice that Francis Henderson Thomson is buried in St Sever Cemetery, Rouen. This would probably indicate that he died of his wounds at one of the large hospitals in the area. Please feel free to PM me for any additional advice.

Aye

Tom McC

[cindyathome]

Tom, Thanks for the info you posted. Dont happen to have appendix 5 by chance? Being doing a LOT of Somme reading of late - head is swimming with names, tactics, and horrors. However find it fascinating. Strangely when i was in france many years ago prior to doing any geneological research of any kind, i was quite moved by the surrounding towns in this area and was often moved to tears and had no idea why. I felt quite drawn to it and wanted to return one day of which i havent done as yet. i loved it there and now i think i know why. Where did you source this quote from as well?

SCHWABEN REDOUBT

14 Oct 1916

The Battalion played a great part in capturing the SCHWABEN REDOUBT. A full account of the operation appears in Appendix No. 5.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Cindy,

Please find the diary account of the 4/5th Bn, The Black Watch, at the Schwaben Redoubt, by using the link below:

 

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Cindy,

The quotes provided are form the Battalion diary. Other accounts of the 39th Division can be found in:

Haunting Years, by William Linton Andrews - An autobiography, and also an excellent account of his time in the 4th and 4/5th Black Watch.

The Cambridgeshires 1914-1919, by Brigadier-General E Riddell, CMG & DL and Colonel M C Clayton DSO & DL .

Undertones of War, by Edmund Blunden.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC