The Undisciplined Aussies

[George Armstrong Custer]

As for why did the Anzacs do so well or not so well, you would have to study Australian history, and I don't think that is taught in British schools, not like here in Oz, where we were taught British history before our own Australian History. Francis Drake, before learning about the Eureka Stockade. Have you heard of the Eureke Stockade?

I learnt your country's history, did you learn mine?

Kim

In answer to you last question first: Yes.

As I've mentioned on this forum before, I went to school in Ballarat. As to Eureka, we lived at 175 Victoria Street - about half a mile from the site of the Eureka Stockade. And Sovereign Hill, recreating Ballarat's gold mining heritage opened while I was growing up there. Between the late 1960's to mid 1970's I recall being taght ancient history - Sumerians etc - as well as British history and leading on from that, Australian history - the First Fleet, Lachlan MacQuarrie, and, yes, the Eureka Stockade. I was a member of the Ballarat High School army cadet unit, and paraded and stood vigil at the cenotaph with it (with Great War vintage SMLE's) at the dawn parade on ANZAC Day. before a change in Australian government policy to the 'militarism' in schools it supposedly represented, caused it to be disbanded in 1972 or 3. I don't need to be told, therefore, the importance of ANZAC to the nation Australia is today. Our school was right beside the Arch of Victory, commemorating the Australian sacrifice in the Great War. So I'm as qualified as you, Kim, to comment on the relationship between Australia and the UK - maybe more so, as after being educated in Australia I've been permanently resident in the UK for many years.

I'd make one final observation, though. For a thread that was supposedly celebrating the irreverent humour of the Aussies, some of you are a bit quick to take offense at any gentle needling going in the other direction.

Regards,

George

[IanA]

That's the trouble with these Aussies - no sense of humour...

[Ozzie]

Ian, I perhaps perceived, wrongly, a slant of, "Anzacs? They were mainly Brit stock" , with the perception that we had not our own identity, and therefore, precluding the others that made up the Anzac effort.

I know that the men from the coal pits of Britian had a hard life, and were tough men, that the men from the streets of London were tough. That the men from the slums, and from the Highlands were tough. I learnt this from being interested enough to study anothers country. My heritage is Scots and Cornwell, amongst others.

It was those that came out to Oz and NZ that found that tough was not good enough, unless you had something extra.

Some went home because they did not have that something.

Australia is a cruel country, and she does not give many second chances. In those early days, if you survived in Australia, with out family, and without the comfort of being born to the environment, and knowing her whims and her nature, then, if you did not have that something extra then you would perish.

It was the men and women who served out their sentences, indentures, and took their chances; those that came freely, looking for a better life, only to find that humans are the same everywhere, but perhaps, the country is not, and if you don't adapt to that country, she will take you.

To be crass, we were the dumping ground of Britian; the second sons, the disgraced, the convicts. Then there were those with vision, who thought they could make their fortunes.

Australia was the land of riches; wool, gold, squattrocracy, - the poor man who could rise above himself, with hard work and determination, and be accepted for his efforts. It was, and still is, also a land that could kill you in so many ways. From drought, bushfire and floods, blizzards, poisonous plants, and animals. A land where another property is a day or two ride away, and medical help, sometimes a week away. Where a man may not see another man for weeks, when on boundary duty.

Her men were not from villages that had memories, and could tell you what your Gt Gt Gt Grandfather was, but made up from unknown people from nations around the globe, and those who were native to Her, and they formed a new identity.

Much the same as Canada and New Zealand. (Although the Kiwi's are not of convict descent.)

But she is my country, no matter what ancient blood runs in my veins. And if not all, then many of those untested and loyal ones that left her shores, bound for WW1, may have had similiar thoughts, that this country which had given them, their parents or grandparents, a chance, a new life, - and so, therefore, they belonged to her, but they would show their loyalty to another.

There is a poem that says it all:

My Country

by Dorothea McKellar

The love of field and coppice,

Of green and shaded lanes,

Of ordered woods and gardens

Is running in your veins.

Strong love of grey-blue distance,

Brown streams and soft, dim skies -

I know but cannot share it,

My love is otherwise.

I love a sunburnt country,

A land of sweeping plains,

Of rugged mountain ranges,

Of droughts and flooding rains.

I love her far horizons,

I love her jewel-sea,

Her beauty and her terror –

The wide brown land for me!

The stark white ring-barked forests,

All tragic to the moon,

The sapphire-misted mountains,

The hot gold hush of noon,

Green tangle of the brushes

Where lithe lianas coil,

And orchids deck the tree-tops,

And ferns the warm dark soil.

Core of my heart, my country!

Her pitiless blue sky,

When, sick at heart, around us

We see the cattle die –

But then the grey clouds gather,

And we can bless again

The drumming of an army,

The steady soaking rain.

Core of my heart, my country!

Land of the rainbow gold,

For flood and fire and famine

She pays us back threefold.

Over the thirsty paddocks,

Watch, after many days,

The filmy veil of greenness

That thickens as we gaze.

An opal-hearted country,

A wilful, lavish land –

All you who have not loved her,

You will not understand –

Though earth holds many splendours,

Wherever I may die,

I know to what brown country

My homing thoughts will fly.

The poet - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_Mackellar

Kim

[Ozzie]

George, you are a man of many parts!

Why you picked Custer is beyond me, though? As an Expat Aussie, would have thought Ned would have been up your alley.

IIRCC- the Indians won the battle.

As for being quick to defend Oz and NZ, and her soldiers. The disparaging labels attached to the Anzacs wear thin after a while.

Ian,

I think the start of this tread was that the Brits did not appreciate Anzac humour.

Cheers

Kim

[George Armstrong Custer]

Why you picked Custer is beyond me, though? IIRCC- the Indians won the battle.

Taking the side of the underdog is as Australian a trait as any, Kim!

Although I grew up in Oz and went to school there, I wasn't born there - so don't really qualify as ex-pat. I do feel well placed, though, to see both sides of any Brit/Oz slanging match. The fact of the matter is that there's more in common than not - and that applies to the humour too, I think. By the mid-1970's, though, I think an old Australia was rapidly passing with an older generation, the like of which we'll never see again. These were people who remembered both world wars and were proud of the ties of Empire and then Commonwealth. There was a decency and integrity about that generation of Australians which didn't celebrate an international image of Australians as uncultured Ocka's. Not, I hasten to add, that I'm suggesting most Aussie's do now - just more than used to, maybe. But again, that's not unique to Australia - there are plenty times abroad when I cringe when I hear a Scottish accent coming from a certain type of Scot abroad, and I'm sure all nationalities have to contend with such minority elements distorting their national image, and not for the better. I think the UK was to blame for helping end some of those feelings of ties with the motherland by throwing in its lot with the EEC to such an extent at that time too, rather than working with the Commonwealth countries more economically closely. The end of the white Australia policy on immigration came to an end about the same time and Australia is now quite different in a lot of ways to the place I grew up. The remembrance of ANZAC, though, is central to maintaining what remains of old values and traditions whilst at the same time epitomising the self-confidence and can-do character of the new and growing nation.

Regards,

George

[Fedelmar]

The character of the WW1 Australian ANZAC's this country will never see again. For starters they don't speak the same!

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[vnurcombe]

I think Peter Charlton had it right in his wonderful book on "Pozieres".....it was after Pozieres that Australians began to think of themselves quite differently.

My favourite AIF cartoon......

A guy who has bravely gone out into no man's land to pick up a wounded soldier, slung him over his shoulder, and dodging bullets, is attempting to get back to his own lines....

and the wounded cobber taps him on the shoulder and asks "Mate, would you mind walking backwards?"

And the brave one asks "why mate?"

and the wounded cobber says "because while you're out here winning the Victoria Cross, I'm copping all the bullets!!!"

[Crunchy]

George, you have summed it up very well. Australia is not the country I grew up in as a boy or young man. Some of the changes have been for the better and some for the worse. As Sandra and yourself quite rightly say: the men of the 1st AIF are a generation the likes of which we will never see again for all the reasons you have outlined. We are now a Nation drawn from many more nationalities around the globe. We also have a strong Irish ancestry amongst our people which probably accounts for some of our attitudes towards Britain.

All four of our relations who lost their lives in the Great War had British born grandparents and one of them transferred to the RFC during the war. I recall my father, 2nd AIF, who was briefly in the UK prior to serving in North Africa, Greece, Syria and Iran, having very fond memories of the people there. He was very much an Empire man who appreciated our close ties with the United Kingdom. I also recall old diggers from the First War who felt much the same. Nonetheless, there is a growing sense that we should become a republic within the Commonwealth, rather than a constitutional monarchy. This is not surprising as Australians of British or Irish heritage are now around 60% or so of our population as opposed to 95 % in 1950. Whether those of us who advocate a republic have fully considered the constitutional and internal political implications remains to be seen, although the monarchy means little to most of us these days.

While the changes in our demography and the increasing generational gap from our British born ancestors has done more than anything else to loosen the ties, I think three other incidents helped loosen them as well: Firstly, the fall of the much vaunted fortress at Singapore and the subsequent reliance on the United States for our defence arrangements; secondly, without even advising the Australian Government, Churchill's signal to divert the returning Australian 6th and 7th Divisions to the defence of India at the expense of Australia's defence and; thirdly, the UK's decision to enter the EU at the time at which it happened. For many Australians the loss of Singapore was shock. Churchill's actions and the British entry into the EU left a sense of betrayal. While the EU decision was understandable and inevitable, Churchill's actions were not.

There were differences between Anzacs and Brits but I am inclined to think they were not as great as the later generations wish to portray. As for undisciplined, the 1st AIF did not give much attention to the more pretentious aspects of military life. Smart dress was not their forte and they saw little practical value in saluting. It seems their easy sauntering manner with their hands in their pockets while on leave and the easy familiarity they had with their regimental officers was not appreciated by the British officers. Yes there were those who raised hell in town when on leave but was this all of them and were they alone? I doubt it. They also despised those aspects of the British military disciplinary system that belittled the British soldier or had him executed. I remember meeting a Canadian whose English father served in a British engineer company in Palestine during the Great War. He related a story his father often told him. The father's company was camped alongside an Australian Light Horse Regiment. A British defaulter was tied to the wheel of a wagon as part of his punishment; the Australians saw this as demeaning and so cut him free. The Tommy was again tied to the wheel and again the Australians cut him free. The third time the Tommy was tied to the wheel the lighthorsemen had had enough, so they "rioted" and went through the British unit smashing every wheel they found. Whether this tale is true or not I don't know but apparently it made such an impression his father decided that after the war he would emigrate from the UK. I had not met the Canadian before or since, but on hearing my Australian accent he sought me out, introduced himself, bought me a beer and then told me the tale of how he came to be a Canadian.

I recently read a diary of a 1st Division man relating to the attack on Broodeseinde. In this, he tells of the close packed lines laying out in the open waiting to 'hop over'. 15 minutes before the British barrage started to support the attack, the German barrage for their own attack came down on them. He relates how the men lay uncomplaining under this barrage and wondered whether would they break, and when the British barrage opened on time how they stood up and advanced towards their objective, he then writes " How can they say the Australians are undisciplined? "

The Ocker image that some try to cultivate as our national trait makes us look foolish overseas and is regrettable. Fortunately the vast majority of us see it as immature; unfortunately the Ockers give us a ridiculous image.

In extolling the larrikin virtue we should not forget the origins of the term larrikin in 1890's Melbourne and Sydney. They were members of gangs, known as the 'push', of abusive young men who strutted the streets being obnoxious to their fellow citizens with all the collective courage a gang can muster. In modern parley they were louts. Reading contemporary accounts of their repugnant and disruptive behaviour they were despised by the vast majority of citizens and the press. During the Great War C.J Dennis portrayed a romantic image of the push through the delightful tales of Ginger Mick. It is this image that has prevailed, while the more unsociable and cowardly habits are conveniently ignored. If modern youth behaved today the way the original larrikins of the push behaved, there would be a national outcry. To be fair the term larrikin now has a different connotation but the origins of the trait are not particularly admirable. We seem to think that it prevailed amongst the men of the 1st AIF; from the many Great War diggers I had the privilege to speak with I doubt this was actually so. I recall that in early 1915 the AIF shipped a number of so called larrikins back to Australia as being less than desirable soldiers whom they were not prepared to trust on operations.

As for humour. I think there is a difference between Australians and Brits, although as George says it derives from our British and Irish heritage. I think ours tends to be a dry humour and while we can generally take the mickey out of ourselves, as George says - some of us are a bit quick to take offense at any gentle needling going in the other direction. Part of our insecurity I suspect.

While Kim says The disparaging labels attached to the Anzacs wear thin after a while, our own parochial view of the Great War and the readiness of Australians to disparage the British and their generals wears even thinner with the Brits. It actually diminishes the achievements of those who fought and died for this country. We can be very proud of what we have achieved as a Nation but, in being so, any attempts to belittle other nationalities only serves to diminish us on the international stage. It is one of the tyrannies of being so isolated from the rest of the world. It reflects badly on our maturity, is regrettable, serves no useful purpose and actually highlights our ignorance of warfare and much of what was entailed in the Great War. If we are prepared to cast stones we should not be surprised if those we cast them at retaliate.

So I make a plea - lets cut the insults either way. We of the British Commonwealth have a shared heritage of which we all can be immensely proud.

Regards

Chris

[59165]

Crunchy,

you shoulda been a politician,matey .

I woulda voted for ya.

Dave.

[Ozzie]

My apologies if I caused offence.

I have the upmost respect for all those, of all nations, that suffered in WW1.

It was actually this forum that took me from the Butchers view, and taught me to try and understand each battle and its consequences, and the officers commanding such, on their own merits.

We of this generation, are far removed from their generation.

Chris,

Another lesson learnt.

Thanks mate.

Regards

Kim

[Crunchy]

Hey Kim,

Absolutely no need to apologise Mate. My post was not directed at you or anyone in particular. I was just expressing my take on the subject.

You are a proud Aussie and good onya for being one. We Aussies just have to realise the Brits actually carried the greatest burden of the war, we went up to lend a hand as part of the family.

Warmest regards

Chris

[Fedelmar]

Oi Crunchy

My uncle DOW at Broodseinde 04.10.1917.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[dekenai]

The character of the WW1 Australian ANZAC's this country will never see again. For starters they don't speak the same!

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Absolutely Sandra---The young men and women of 14-18 wouldn't like Australia today--and l doubt if Australia would like them. People are different thanks to Hollywood and the crap that gets peddled on TV

ggrrrrr

[dekenai]

Crunchy, Sandra

CJ Dennis is my favourite Poet----l look for Ginger Mick when l get around Australia in the hope he is still there.

I think the essence of the AIF in WW1 was/is;

quote;

"But Dale's right -- they were just ordinary blokes.

But the one thing you've got to remember, and Ted Matthews, who I interviewed, is the last bloke alive to land on the first day, said we were volunteers, never forget that".

unquote

It is a bit rich to say they were the only volunteers in the allied armies--What is meant that there were no conscriptees in the AIF. They went to do a job and come home again.

So in their eyes, they had no time for spit 'n polish---it wasn't what they were there for-------

2 diggers talking at a grave side;

" well look at that Bill, "Here lies the body of an British Officer and a Gentleman"

"jeez Jim, fancy- two blokes in the one grave"

[Steven Broomfield]

So I make a plea - lets cut the insults either way. We of the British Commonwealth have a shared heritage of which we all can be immensely proud.

Regards

Chris

Hear, hear to that.

[dycer]

I've quoted this before but this is from the Memoirs of 4585 Boy J.M. Marchbank,8th Royal Scots who landed in France November 1914 aged 14 and was awarded the M.M. in 1918 before his 18th Birthday.

"Characteristics

It is regarded as being true that certain characteristics in people show up in war.The Aussies,Canadians and New Zealanders were confident,fearless but lacked discipline.The French noisy,undisciplined.The Germans disciplined.The English phlegmatic who never knew when they were beaten.The Scots dour,determined,the only troops who loved using the bayonet and the best fighting troops in the world.Unfortunately also for going on the rampage with a drink inside them."

Would it be fair to say that the "old" Commonwealth Countries absorbed the best and worst traits of the "Mother Country"?

George

[Simon Jones]

Amongst the papers of Sir Henry Rawlinson, the Fourth Army commander and under whom the Australians fought during much of 1918, is a postcard with a photograph of a group of ten Aussies. It was postmarked 14 May and posted at St Ouer (Somme) and is addressed to ther Assistant Provost Marshal Havre, a certain Capt Fitzpatrick. Written in pencil is the following message:

Sir

With all due respect we send you this PC as a suvenir [sic] trusting that you will keep it as a mark of esteem from those who know you well. At the same time trusting that Nous Jamais Regardez encore [we never see you again].

Au revoir

Nous

All were absentees who had escaped from detention. While they were 'bad hats' you cannot but admire their cheek!

Charles M

My favourite also. There is a copy in the AWM ref. A03862:

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/ump.retrieve_um...&parm2=2000

S

[Simon Jones]

Here it is.

[elle72]

cheeky b*ggers!

[59165]

Do you know what happened to them,Simon?

Is there a commune in France of 'froggers'(frog diggers,there was another option for a nickname but.. )that I should keep an eye out for or did they get home?

Dave.

[Simon Jones]

Dave

I have no idea!

Simon

[59165]

Shame that,Simon.

I had pictures of 'the monocled mutineer' type thing!

Ah well.

Dave.

[west coast]

the much decorated Adrian Carton De Wiart recounts a frequently told story, General Birdwood.... passed an australian soldier who took no notice of him... his officer told him it was his g.o.c. General Birdwood. this elicted the reply "well , why the -- doesn`t he wear a feather in his tail like any bird would ?" . "birdy " was very popular with the aussie troops.

[dekenai]

Another true example of 'larrikin' trait was Joe Maxwell VC, MC (2), DCM. Australia's 2nd most decorated soldier.

His life to his end in 1967, was epitomised by "war, women, and wine". He did crave a bit of recognition, he said" l am only known to the military police and my associates in the battalion". Never the less, a brave capable soldier. "I felt horribly embarrassed but l managed to return the salute". The Prince of Wales and Mountbatten had saluted the VC winner when he passed by.

Also Sgt John Wood VC;

dropped rank to corporal, after being berated by a Brit Officer as " a lot of undisciplined so and so's!", In a break in the dressing down, Wood was heard to say, " yeah, but we're good soldiers though".

dekenai