Forgotten Voices of the Somme (not yet released)

[PMHart]

Hi Steven,

I really do appreciate your point about year on year exagerations in the bar etc but in practice I have always found that it peels away like a cheap veneer when being interviewed by some sceptical ******* from the IWM (the government in a sense!!!) Exagerations they might try in the pub seem to evaporate. I really don't hear many tales of daring do! But then again I do hear some right rubbish!

It really is all about context and judgment. My old motto (see Billy Bishop etc) If something is unbelievable then don't believe it - whatever the source! If it sounds realistic, fits in with the contemporary records and checks out then go for it! But you'll never really know....

Pete

PS I'm doing this to avoid the awful display by Liverpool

[PMHart]

Ouch! You should have been a punk rocker, Peter.

I was - Those Naughty Lumps, Liverpool 1976-1980 our finest 1 minute 57 seconds was a single called Iggy Pop's Jacket!!!! We were dreadful!

Pete

[4thGordons]

PS I'm doing this to avoid the awful display by Liverpool

Me too - thank goodness for Dirk's leg!

"Crikey! Pigeons... meet Mr Cat"

When I posted this I innocently thought I was bringing attention to something that might otherwise slip by!

I agree with some of the criticisms of the project - especially those regarding context and use; however, while the books are certainly not on my "must have list" (although I do have - and kept the first one and "Forgotten Scottish Voices" and "On a wing and a Prayer" ) I think they do serve a purpose of providing access to a broader population, to accounts that otherwise would languish in a dusty corner, inaccesable to all but those wearing anoraks and GWF badges (which might be what those "seriously interested in the Great War" might be seen by much of the world as a euphamism for and amongst whom I would number myself).

The "article" /"review" if that is what it was (in a film it might be called product placement) was - as Peter pointed out, little more than an advance ad. and as such things go was apparently provocative at least! I am uncomfortqable juging a book I have not read and dismissing a whole approach on the basis of weaker examples... if I did that Liverpool's last three performances (Wins no less!) would have serioulsy undermined my support, instead I choose to remember other examples......

As others have pointed out...It seems clear to me that eyewitness accounts and other sources do have their role to play in our understanding of historical processes. When the two are complimentary that is useful and when they are contradictory it give us something to ponder and puzzles to resolve. Even accounts that contradict what we "know" to be "true" raise interesting questions regarding why they are misremembered, distorted, falsified, mythologised etc etc

It seems to me narrow minded to dismiss all recollections out of hand and equally misplaced to trust other sources (as if official accounts are not subject to influence, axe ginding etc) implicitly.

Sean's (SMG65) contemporary example made me smile to the extent that I assume that eyewitness accounts are not totally discredited in his (or the authorities' eyes) otherwise why would they play such a big role in investigations. The answer is, I assume, whilst they are not always ,they can be useful, in particular when combined other information. The time issue is also of interest. In my (limited) experience, witnesses are interviewed immediately and then often reinterviewed later - I assume on the basis that they may have "remembered" something more - this would suggest that, to a point at least, the relationship between time and memory is not a simple one. Although in general I think I might put more trust in an account a few months later than one given decades later...IF what I was interested in was "fact"/"order of events" . If I was interested in the lasting impact of the experiences on those who underwent them then I might view and use the material differently. In this particular case there is one interesting component - there may have been far stronger taboos in discussing the issues regarding sexuality etc at the time than there were later, so it may be interviewees felt more free to discuss things at a later date than they would have done immediately. Of course this should be weighed agains the reliability, passage of time, tall story concerns that have been elequently expressed.

I shall not be rushing out to buy this - but if one shows up in a stocking in a month or four (as was the case with the others), I'd read it.

I should say I found all of the posts thought provoking in a number of ways and enjoyed reexamining my thoughts and use of eyewitness accounts.

Apologies for the ramble I have just made a 4 hour drive after spending a day in an archive so perhaps my thoughts are not as clear as they should be!

Chris

[pmaasz]

First let me say that I most certainly intended no disrespect or criticism of the IWM Sound Archive. I was aware of it but I'm not familiar with it and given a suitable opportunity I intend to become so. My comments were directed at those books which are WW1 history constructed around or illustrated by recorded stories from soldiers.

Now, returning to the story with which I have found fault. I think what troubles me most is not that this short account contains errors and probably imagined events: I have dealt with that so far as my own regiment's archives are concerned. No, my real concern is - it has been picked up by other authors and repeated in their books of WW1 history. Thus do such things become so cast in stone that they appear to the un-enlightened as totally valid. It would be fanciful to believe that this is an isolated occurrence, and that should cause all serious students of war history to become, at the very least, alert and aware.

[SMG65]

Chris

Eyewitness accounts are never discredited unless they are blatantly lying.

We expect their accounts to be a bit mixed up and not in the correct order of events, in fact we get suspicious when they are not mixed up and are in perfect order.

We interview by the method of 'Free Recall' which involves letting the person talk without us interrupting.

We then go through their recall part by part, adding more detail and getting descriptions, we also record their feelings at the time of the incident.

We then go back later to see if they can recall any further detail.

The shortest interview using this method has been 2 hours, the longest has been 18 hours over 3 days.

Last night I was at the scene of a serious Road Traffic Collision and I interviewed a witness 30 minutes after the incident, we call it a 'First Account'.

Her account of the incident was detailed and in correct order yet she couldn't tell me the make or colour of the cars involved, the brain can only remember so much at a traumatic event.

I will speak to her again tomorrow and she may remember some more.

Peter

You have interviewed my wife's uncles and some of our WFA branch members, all have nothing but praise for you and praise from one of them is rare.

One of the uncles thought he wouldn't have much to tell you, yet you interviewed him for 5 hours and he felt his story was valued by you, you made a veteran very happy.

The other uncle was with you for about 6 hours and you are the first person to whom he has told the truth about his time in Korea, he will not let any of the family hear the interview until he has died.

We have a few more veterans lined up for you for your next visit, keep up the good work.

I recommend that readers of this Forum go to a meeting where you are doing your 'Sound Archives of the IWM' talk.

They would then have a greater understanding of the work you do and the patience and skill that it involves.

Sean

[Desmond7]

For the life of me - I can't see the problem. If there are more first hand accounts out there .. get 'em in the public domain. They will ring bells with someone, somewhere.

For the average punter, the series is a snapshot of personal opinions and experiences ... for us die hards much of it may have been seen before etc. but still worthwhile.

[Steven Broomfield]

PS I'm doing this to avoid the awful display by Liverpool

You think you've got problems. You should have seen Cambridge United's display against Kettering, live on Setanta Soprts 1 on Monday teatime. £7.99 a month my subscription is to watch that.

And I agree - it's all about the context and background research when using these memories; which, back to the beginning, I don't think the Forgotten Voices demonstrate, but others (notably your good self!) do. I remember once, some years ago, talking to Lyn MacDonald, and she told an interesting story. She was at a get-together of a battalion (11th RB?) which she had a special interest in, and two of the veterans were discussing something that had happened. They were disagreeing about a point - the weather, I think, on a certain day - and they decided the best way to settle the argument was to ask Lyn because she'd done the research!

So yes, memories are golden, but filling-in the background is vital.

[truthergw]

Personal recollections are irreplaceable and perishable. They need to be recorded and they provide a priceless dimension to the descriptions of an action or a war. However, they are what they are. No one man can see very far on a battlefield nor describe what was going on further away than a few metres. A man who served in France cannot describe the war in Palestine. My criticism is not of the anecdotes but when they are used to describe the battle or the war. To describe a battle using anecdotes is like picturing a building by describing a few of the bricks. No soldier who is on the field and taking part will have any real idea of what is going on. If I wish to know what it was like and how it felt to fight in a battle then these books are now the only way to do that. If I wish to know why or how the battle was fought, what was the purpose and what the result, I have to turn to other books written with different techniques by different authors using different resources.

[Michelle Young]

Was it Macmillan: Old Men Forget?

Me, I can't remember what i did yesterday without asking my wife.

Duff Cooper I think Stephen

Michelle

[Steven Broomfield]

You're right Michelle.

I wonder if Duff Cooper remembered?

[SimonM]

Hi Steven,

I really do appreciate your point about year on year exagerations in the bar etc but in practice I have always found that it peels away like a cheap veneer when being interviewed by some sceptical ******* from the IWM (the government in a sense!!!) Exagerations they might try in the pub seem to evaporate. I really don't hear many tales of daring do! But then again I do hear some right rubbish!

It really is all about context and judgment. My old motto (see Billy Bishop etc) If something is unbelievable then don't believe it - whatever the source! If it sounds realistic, fits in with the contemporary records and checks out then go for it! But you'll never really know....

Pete

PS I'm doing this to avoid the awful display by Liverpool

Peter,

Never considered you to be a "sceptical *******"! Seriously, I have to admit to being cautious myself with some oral history (particularly bad interviews - ie not the type Peter does). Using them in my research has always been a question of confirmation by at least a couple of other sources. Unfortunately, the number of documentary makers I have assisted who latch onto one comment in a diary and then assume it must certainly have been the result of friendly fire, is sickening. Don't get me started on TV......... I suppose it boils down to discipline in research.

I won't name the veteran but one old fella we were interested in regarding Salonika made some very interesting comments about his service - subsequent analysis of his service record confirmed he was there (as did the questionnaire Alan Wakefield and I gave him) but certainly not doing what he later claimed; but it could have been put down to old age perhaps.......?

Cheers

Simon Moody

[JPAE]

The use of 'forgotten' seems to me to relate to the period I grew up in during the sixties when we were obliged to 'forget' all that Military based society and realise that all those men had been duped into the 'King and Country' myth,and our generation would be very,very different. Don't believe it? Well I was there and it was rife in educational circles,newspapers,novels,and the WW1 books of the period. The 'forgotten' style has brought a mass readership to a subject that was almost filed away to many and may have begun to introduce some semblance of the reality of the events of the time without all that sixties claptrap getting in the way.

Perhaps the charity book shops will be given more and more of these themed books and introduce more of my generation to the true historical perspective of the Great War.

No,they are not forgotten,far from it as this site shows,but they could so easily have been.

I learnt so much from from the Max Arthur book some years ago and have moved on,so the somme book will not be on my wish list. However ,I suspect it will be inspirational reading for the newcomer.

Phil.

[boris]

Enjoyed reading all your comments, i did/do enjoy reading all the 'forgotten' books. But was taken aback one night when watching one of my ''Daily Mails The Great War'' cd's that my mam had kindly saved for me! And suddenly i realised I was listening to one of the ''voices''...I shocked my self as i knew what he was about to say next, great to put a face to the voice.

[delta]

Found a copy of the book in Tesco this afternoon and excitedly turned to the section on Flers-Courcellette.

Rather sadded to see Huffum described as Hatton but the Hastie peice I had not seen before, although most other quotes were knwon to me. Therefore will nto be adding it to my Christmas book list

S