Harris brothers, 2/3 Londons, froze to death Suvla

[Guest Pete Wood]

If anyone has the book, True World War 1 Stories (publised by Robinson), there is a story by Lt Col FWD Bendall, CO of 2/3 London Regiment.

It describes the graphic, and horrific floods and freezing weather that occurred on the 28th/29th November 1915 in which men drowned or froze to death in their trenches.

Bendall cites: "...we found a number of bodies. None was wounded, all had died of exposure. Two brothers of 'C' company had died together. The arm of one was round the other's neck, the fingers held a piece of biscuit to the frozen mouth."

I looked on SDGW and found that two men with the surname Harris died on the 28th November 1915.

But when I looked on CWGC, only one man had his NoK details.

Name: HARRIS, CHRISTOPHER JOHN ARTHUR

Initials: C J A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: London Regt (Royal Fusiliers)

Unit Text: 3rd Bn

Age: 22

Date of Death: 28/11/1915

Service No: 2267

Additional information: Son of Christopher and Marian Jane Harris, of 49, Baxter Rd., Essex Rd., Islington, London.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 196

Cemetery: HELLES MEMORIAL

Name: HARRIS, HERBERT JAMES

Initials: H J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: London Regt (Royal Fusiliers)

Unit Text: 3rd Bn.

Date of Death: 28/11/1915

Service No: 3044

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 196

Cemetery: HELLES MEMORIAL

Both men enlisted at Edward Street.

But Herbert is shown by SDGW as a resident of St Pancras, while Christopher was a resident of Brixton (though his NoK post-war address is Islington).

Are these two men related, or did Bendall assume that these men were brothers because of their surname.

I have my doubts, as a number of the other 'true' stories, where soldiers are mentioned as being killed, don't pan out and are clearly tales of fantasy.

According to SDGW, 48 men from this battalion died that night.....

[Will O'Brien]

Teapots.....................I'm afraid I don't think that Christopher & Herbert were brothers..............I found Christopher on the 1901 census aged 8. He lived at 49 Baxter Road, Islington, London with.........

His father Christopher who was aged 39 & a Jewel Cas Maker (whatever one of those are)

His mother Marian who was aged 35

His elder sister Grace who was aged 11

His younger brother Percy who was aged 4

His Grandmother Emma (his fathers mother) who was aged 67

His Aunt also called Emma (his fathers sister) who was aged 35

No mention at all of a Herbert............He could of course been younger & not born in 1901 but that would make him at most only 13 or 14 in 1915 & too young to be in the army...............Conversely he could have been older & already left home in 1901...........at a guess, for this to be the case he would have had to have been at least aged 16.......... which doesn't fit too well with the ages of the other 'siblings' & would have made Marian quite a young mother at only 19. Whilst not impossible, I think its more plausible that Christopher & Herbert were not brothers.

I have also found a candidate for Herbert Harris on the Census (although this is based on guesswork with no NOK to go on & only St Pancras as a place of residence). However there was 1 Herbert Harris living in St Pancras in 1901 & who is listed on the census. This Herbert Harris was a 19 year old Barbers Assistant (that would make him approx 34 in 1915 which falls well within military service age) . This Herbert Harris lived at 9 Malden Crescent, St Pancras with his mother Catherine aged 50, his elder brothers William (age 24) & Arthur (age 21). William was a printer & Arthur was a Camera Maker. Both worked from home as did Herbert himself (a little cottage industry going on perhaps?). Herbert also had a younger brother Francis (aged 16) who was a Saddler Tree Maker.... and yes Francis worked from home as well. There was also a younger sister Edith & a border William Thorne, also a camera maker who appeared to be involed in the business activities going on in the Harris household........................Shame that it appears Christopher & Herbert were not related........but I had a bit of fun searching for them

[Guest Pete Wood]

Will

Thank you so much for looking!!

Sadly, this book, True WW1 Stories, is anything but true. It seems that poetic licence was just as fashionable then as it is today.

I am sure these writers never dreamt that people would one day, be able to research/authenticate their tales.......

[Max]

Hello RT, Will

There is a Herbert Harris on the 1901 census, aged 16, born Islington, in Cornwall with the Navy.

I don't think that the range of ages for siblings is anything unusual. I have found lots of examples of my family members producing children over a 20 - 25 year period and from 16 or 17 years of age.

Andy

[Guest lidzy]

Hello All!

Bit late this, but I have just been reading about the Royal Fusiliers in Suvla, and the 2/3rd Battalion London Regiment in particular (I think my Great Uncle was in the unit. His M.I.C., where it should say his original Battalion, isn't online yet, but when he died he was in the 1/3rd Battalion London Regt, into which the 2/3 seems to have been amalgamated in May 1916 ). ANYWAY, on pages 105 to 107 of "The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War" by H.C. O'Neill (Naval and Military Press reprint)

it describes an incident identical to the one you described, but happening to 2 soldiers of the 2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers during the storm on the 27th or 28th November (bit unclear which day). It says that 2 men of W company had paused to rest on their way back to camp, and that the younger of the two wouldn't leave his comrade alone in the darkness and snow. The author goes on to describe how:

"The next morning they were found together - frozen stiff. The younger, his arms round his companion, held a piece of broken biscuit in each frozen hand, and there were biscuit crumbs frozen into the mustache of the elder man."

It's not inconceivable that these two men could have been from the 2/3rd Londons, because their battalion seems to have been attached to the 2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers in September, for "instructional purposes" (O'Neill page 104), although I would imagine that the training period would have been over by November. However, personally I think it sounds a bit like a moral-boosting tale to give a positive side to a disasterous event.

Hope this helps a bit (probably not!)

All the best, Tony

[Andrew Hesketh]

"It describes the graphic, and horrific floods and freezing weather that occurred on the 28th/29th November 1915 in which men drowned or froze to death in their trenches."

These are certainly true.

[Guest lidzy]

Hello All!

Just to clarify - I'm not belittling the bravery or endurance of the individuals involved in this event, or questioning the truth of it - I'm just questioning the way it was reported, or which aspects of it were highlighted. There is certainly some "propaganda" value in describing genuinely touching scenes like that of the two men who froze to death, but it also conveniently deflects a lot of criticism away from the people responsible for putting them there.

All the best,

Tony

[michaeldr]

As I recollect, this aspect has been touched on in the forum before and I think that the conclusion then was that the PBI had to very lucky to have officers who were up to dealing with this peculiar situation. There was one regiment [my apologies; I cannot for the moment remember which one] which concentrated on providing fires in braziers made out of biscuit tins, supplemented by hot drinks or food. They had no cold casualties whereas other regiments had hundreds, including many deaths.

Regards

Michael D.R.