Opinions Sought - Format

[4thGordons]

Not a book review but specifically related to books.

I am working on editing a selection of letters and photographs and would like to solicit input from forum members as to preferred FORMAT. To some extent this will be controlled by any potential publisher (especially as regards pictures where cost is a factor), but for my information:

Remembering this is an edited collection of letters/Photographs (about 120 letters covering June 1917-Jan 1919) and perhaps 40/50 photographs (to choose from):

In terms of explanatory/illustrative comments (ie not just reference to sources but explanations and contexts for things mentioned) do you prefer

A] Footnotes (bottom of the page where the item the item being noted appears)?

B] Chapter Endnotes (end of the chapter/section in which the item being noted appears)?

C] True Endnotes (end of the main body of text ie the back of the book)?

In terms of pictures do you prefer:

A] scattered throughout the text close to the entries most relevant to the pictures?

B] concentrated in a central section (all the pictures) with references in the text?

Any other pet peeves or likes or suggestions?

I am getting way ahead of myself with this but I would like some sense of this as I proceed to the next stage.

Thanks in advance

Chris

[Waddell]

Chris,

I prefer true endnotes and photo's in a centre section.

Pet peeves are rubbish maps. I prefer maps in the text as they relate to action within a chapter.

I find nothing worse than having to go back to the front of a book or many pages back to relate a map to the action.

I think the layout of Carlyon's "Great War" is excellent.

Hope that helps.

Good luck with the book.

Scott.

[Doc2]

Chris, I prefer Chapter endnotes and pictures scattered throughout, appearing near the text which they illustrate. Doc

[Pete1052]

When endnotes are at the end of the book it helps if there are headers saying, "Notes to Pages XXX-YYY."

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day Chris,

Iagree with Doc but also agree with Scott's pet peeves

Good luck

Regards

Pop

[Michelle Young]

I like footnotes myself, when you have to keep referring to the back of the book it gets annoying IMHO.

Michelle

[bmac]

Chris,

Pet peeves: anything related to an event described or person mentioned having to be found elsewhere (except sources). So, I worked on the principle of:

1. footnotes where it relates to persons/events on the page;

2. maps and photos located as near as possible to action/events/person described/depicted; and

3. chapter endnotes for sources/references.

I will admit that this resulted, on some pages, of there being more footnote text than ordinary text (for example when short biogs of people in casualty lists were appended) but, personally, I'd rather be able to read such detail then and there than have to flick through dozens of pages to find them.

Oh, and I HATE end of book endnotes!!!!!

Bill

[armistice]

My own 2 cents...

Vis-a-vis footnotes / endnotes,

If there are large number per page, then I prefer to see endnotes at the end of the book ("Headers", as suggested by Pete1052 above, are a great help).

If there are only 2 or 3 per page (or they are short), then I much prefer to see footnotes at the bottom of each page for quick and easy reference.

I've never been a fan of chapter endnotes - too 'scholarly' for me

Vis-a-vis pictures,

Given the style of book you describe, I imagine the photos to be of the men who wrote the letters, or perhaps scenes directly referenced in the letters. In such a case it would be nice to see them next to the letters in question.

However, if quality is important, then central plates (using glossy, photo-quality paper) are generally better and preferred.

I always like to see photos clearly (and correctly) referenced.

I love photos that are well captioned with a wealth of information, including the names (as far as it is possible) of all those in the photo.

Vis-a-vis maps,

If maps are to be included, I always like to see full-page maps with contour lines included - including the names of all places / features (natural or man made) referenced in the text. Nothing more annoying than searching in vain for something that aint there!

A country-wide map of the period at the beginning of the book, clearly marking the places of interest is always well received to give a sense of place and orientation.

[Halder]

Notes preferably at the end of each chapter, rather than keep flicking to the back of the book, but if they do go at the back, a heading at the top of the page "Notes to pages xx-yy" is extremely useful. Footnotes do give a book a scholarly appearance and make it easy for the reader to follow references, but they're a sonofagun to lay out...

Pictures look better in one section rather than scattered through the text (and it normally means better paper).

Ideally, maps in the text rather than all lumped together (although this isn't always feasible, maps are often the last things to be delivered to publishers, or they are in my case ...)

Doing the index yourself, although painstaking, is a good idea; it allows you to pick up any final errors that previous proofreading has missed.

[bmac]

One issue about photographs to bear in mind is that, unless you have a publisher who will bear the cost (but you still ultimately pay!), printing a self-published book with a separate photo section on glossy paper comes in a lot more expensive. You should check this out if these are your circumstances.

Re: indexing. If you are using something like Word then it is a bit of a swine given Word's liking to index things like battalion numbers as 1, 10-19, 100+ then 2, 20-29, 200+, etc. You will have to edit the index after generating it. Use of a concordance file can, though, short circuit things as long as you ensure that all entries within the concordance file are unique.

[bruce]

My two pennyworth...

I much prefer footnotes at the foot of the page.

References at the end of each chapter, where possible.

Photos as near as possible to the people/place to which they refer.

BTW....I found in publishing mine on the Ainsdale War Memorial that having ANY colour pictures boosts the cost to unacceptable levels. Better to go for all b&w from the start.

Bruce

[swizz]

Personally I quite like footnotes on each page as it saves constantly moving to and fro to the back of the book. Endnotes at the end of each chapter can look a bit academic but personally I don't find much difference between having them at the end of each chapter and at the end of the entire book.

I think photos can work either way. In my own book the pictures are scattered throughout the text, so they're close to where they are mentioned. I could have chosen to have them all together in the middle on better quality paper but that would have added several pounds to the price of the book. In the end I decided that it was better to keep the price lower.

You might find that you are constrained on both footnotes / endnotes and photos by cost or your publisher - but hopefully that won't be the case.

Swizz

[Muerrisch]

I hope my pennorth carries some weight: I have had five books published, and many magazine articles, so here goes.

Footnotes [in a smaller point size] preferred, chapter endnotes are worst of all, book endnotes are OK in a short piece, such as an article in Stand To!.

Illustrations are best incorporated where they are relevant, thus minimising need for a separate title to illustration.

Indexing: I cannot stress too strongly that it must be done absolutely last, when you draw a line under any changes and walk away from it. Avoid temptation to experiment earlier, unless it is on a cloned distinct version. This problem of indexing can cause great stress ...... AVOID until last minute.

Finance: consider asking for subscriptions from potential buyers up front ....... it worked for me, but I had an established reputation of sorts [!!!].

And good luck

Finally, if you get to publication day still sane, be prepared for the writers' version of Post Natal Depression. Best cure is to have another project started before book is finished.

[bmac]

Finally, if you get to publication day still sane, be prepared for the writers' version of Post Natal Depression. Best cure is to have another project started before book is finished.

Couldn't agree more. After getting two out this year I'm am really at a loss to know what to do. To show how sad this can get I cam currently taking Venice to domination in medieval Europe in Medieval II: Total War. Absolutely barking.

[Bryn_Hammond]

My experience is that the publishers have a major say in how these things are done. Orion (Weidenfeld & Nicolson) have a house style with which I disagreed on some levels - especially over hyphens in 'Major-General', etc (they took them out). It doesn't pay to be precious about these things but it is worth stressing them to the publisher. I said 'OK, but it's wrong' and left it at that.

A decent publisher will decide the cover image and do the index and have views on footnotes. These are all areas where you can say 'It wasn't me. It was the publisher' when someone points out that it was 'From Chauffeur to Brigadier' and not 'Chauffer' etc.

I would have liked 'Notes to pages xxx to xxx' but a contract between you and the publisher has usually committed you to agreeing to their style guidelines.

And, I have to say, at the end of the day my publishers have produced a really nice book and one I can feel proud of. Just don't ask about hyphens ...

Bryn

[John_Hartley]

A related query on the subject of photos and their captions/titles (or whatever the correct word is).

I see two styles used in books.

The first is, for example, as bmac's two books - where a photo is centred on the page, with a caption underneath and the main body of the text above and below this. The other, for example, as in Bernard Lewis' "Swansea Pals", where the photo and its caption is offset to the margin of the page and the main body of the text "wrapped around" it.

Is this simply a matter of author/publisher preference or are there some technical constraints at work here? I wonder if it might be the latter as I've been playing with Word and whilst I can easily get text to "wrap around" an uncaptioned photo, I can't find a way to do this with caption.

Is it just me being a Word thicko (in which case, please tell me how to do it) or is not possible with Word? If the latter, would a work-round be to offset the photo and, in the body of text, make reference to it as , say "Captain J M Hartley (photo right) was wounded......."

John

[Muerrisch]

I seem to recall that creating a Text Box for the caption enabled the main body to flow round ill. and caption.

[Rob Connolly]

If you include quotes in a foreign language, please supply a translation!

Maps: do you have to pay for these yourself? If not, make them as detailed as possible. If yes, still make them as detailed as possible! A map that consists of two squiggly lines, a dot with the legend "Ypres" and the Belgian coast isn't worth bothering with.

Nowt to do with format, but would the publisher be receptive to offering a discount to GWF members? It seemed to work for bmac.

[Bernard_Lewis]

I prefer footnotes at the bottom of the page they refer to. Some publishers find this difficult and - as Bryn said - you can't be too precious.

I also prefer photos spread throughout the text at appropriate places. So do Pen and Sword.

For Swansea Pals I did my own index. Rudimentary, but it worked for me (I hope it worked for others). As Grumpy said DO IT LAST OF ALL! I just went through add added to a Word doc e.g. Bloggs, J. (page) 29 etc. I didn't use auto numbering and it seemed to work OK. I grouped some stuff - battalion references etc.

Pen and Sword offered a discount for advance orders. I think some Forum members used that option. Had my royalty statement today and they shifted 114 copies in Jan - June 2008. It came out in 2004 so I'm happy with that.

My third book will come out next year (still writing it at Pen and Sword's commission); I have a couple of thoughts on future options too. Been lucky enough not to have to try self publishing yet but certainly don't rule it out.

Bernard

[bmac]

The first is, for example, as bmac's two books - where a photo is centred on the page, with a caption underneath and the main body of the text above and below this. The other, for example, as in Bernard Lewis' "Swansea Pals", where the photo and its caption is offset to the margin of the page and the main body of the text "wrapped around" it.

John,

Insert photo within text and select the 'wrap' that you prefer. Then select photo and go to Insert|Reference|Caption. Type in caption text (which can be independently formatted) and Robert is your mother's brother. Well, it works for me!

Bill

[Halder]

Finally, if you get to publication day still sane, be prepared for the writers' version of Post Natal Depression. Best cure is to have another project started before book is finished.

Amen to that. I finished both my books with a sense not of triumph but of anti-climax and emptiness. It is a very, very strange feeling. The hardest thing is picking yourself up after that for the next six months of proofreading, changes, tweaks, sorting out the maps, the images, etc. The flip side, of course, is opening that box from your publisher when it turns up for the first time. A sort of high.

Luckily I have about 10 writing projects on the go in various stages. No chance of post-natal depression. Or rest. Or saving money...

[Moonraker]

Footnotes if they provide some "by-the-way" information to a reference on the page. ("Bloggs was to return to India during the Second World War to command his own battalion of the 5th Wealdshires.")

True endnotes (bibliographical references rather than ancillary info) but as well as giving the chapter number there add its title. I HATE trying to work out which "Chapter 4" is.

Pictures as close to the text reference as possible. Modern printing techniques mean that photos will reproduce reasonably well, though grouping them together means the printer can use a better quality of paper just for them.

DIY indexing is best done with two people - one working through the text, the other actually compiling it.

Moonraker

[John_Hartley]

David/Bill

Thanks to both. I've had a play - both work and Bill's way seems quicker/easier (at least to me).

John

[Robert Dunlop]

Maps that have the locations mentioned in the text.

Robert

[4thGordons]

Thanks very much for your insights, preferences and especially experiences.

The approach I have been adopting is a short introductory essay for each of the 4 sections, then allowing the letters and photographs to speak for themselves but annotating the letters using footnotes to explain particular references, technical terms, names etc. So the introductory essays have bibliographic citations, sources etc. The letters on the whole do not have bibliographic citations, although there are some references to contemporary newspaper articles (mentioned in the letters), the footnotes (quite extensive) are of the type suggested by Mooraker in post 22.

As far as maps go; I had intended to have only one general map showing the various places, although I am rethinking this in part based upon the comments here. During June-Oct 1918 the author's squadron moved a great deal and it might clarify matters considerably to have this in a map form in that section.

The pictures (the originals are quite small and in "so-so condition" in some cases although they clean up quite nicely) will probably have to be determined by the printing/publication process. I think the photos will be of more interest to those interested in the purely military side of things so I do want to make sure they are presented in the best possible fashion.

Many thanks once again for all the comments,

Now back to work on it!

Chris