waffenlandser

[Waffenlandser]

...Yet another Yank rolls up to explain to us poor benighted Brits...

Tom,

Actually, I don't think we can take credit in this case.

Paul

Perhaps in 1916 some Yank or any other soldier of intelligence told the British high command what to do, like attack without an announcing barrage and to cross no mans land at night,or an outflanking attack and not a direct assault on deep bunkers, we may have had a different outcome and every little town in the UK would not have its roll of honor.

As you say. History still is writing the epitaph of the Somme disaster. I am merely a small contributor.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Perhaps in 1916 some Yank or any other soldier of intelligence

Funny, I thought they showed the Brits the way in 1918. Their way wasn't any better!

South Africans went dutifully to the colors in 1914 as they did in 1940. They fought and died for France and England, as did the Aussies and Canadians.

The soldiers of 1914, both German and British fought and died to save a few hundred square mile of cow pastures. They were not responsible for the carnage. It was the politicians and old senile generals who were responsible.

Everybody on this forum seems engrossed with the cemeteries and memorials of that ghastly time in our history and not by the actual facts that caused these killing fields to be memorialised.

You must have a different history book than I have; Afrikaners rebelled rather than go to war in 1914 and were suppressed by their own government. They went to war in 1915 against German South West Africa, on the border of their own Union and also fought in East Africa amongst other theatres.

I don’t think anyone on this forum disrespects the dead of WWI or denies the baravery of both sides. To suggest that all they died for was a few hundred square mile of cow pastures displays monumental ignorance, which is why so many are reacting negatively to your thread. Which part of the Kaiser and von Schlieffen or the German High Command do you have difficulty understanding? If there had been no invasion of Belgium, Luxemburg and France there would have been nothing for the French and British generals to react to and thus no reason to ship millions of troops there.

I seem to read different posts to you. I find that the members of this forum bring a lot of view points to bear and brim over with facts.

[Jim Clay]

I find that the members of this forum bring a lot of view points to bear and brim over with facts.

Hear, hear. And on a considerably wider range of discussion than just "the cemeteries and memorials of that ghastly time in our history".

Jim

[Waffenlandser]

[

"You must have a different history book than I have; Afrikaners rebelled rather than go to war in 1914 and were suppressed by their own government. They went to war in 1915 against German South West Africa, on the border of their own Union and also fought in East Africa amongst other theatres."

Delville Wood appears to have slipped by your learned studies of WW1. I strongly suggest Roll Call be included in your reading this year

The Afrikaner men flocked to the colors in WW2 as well. At some time please visit the South African cemeteries at Tobruk and Delville Wood to appreciate this.

I really did not expect any positive replies to my thread. I am used to going it alone.

In my cow pasture line, I was referring to the Somme only. Again. I ask you give me a list of major industrial or commercial sites in the region at the time of the Big Push. Name me just one legitimate place of industrial substance between Albert and Bapaume. In prewar pictures I see more cows and sheep than factories.

yes. I forgot. The Somme offensive was primarily meant to take the pressure off the French at Verdun. This quiet sector was far to cushy for our men. I believe it was the "live and let live" policy there that irked the Generals.

Trench raiders informed their superiors that the wire in front of the German trenches was intact and not cut by the artillery barrage. They were ignored and the offensive not postponed.

[IanA]

I really did not expect any positive replies to my thread. I am used to going it alone.

Could that be because you inhabit a world of your own. Rawlinson sacked; thousands of white crosses; a distracted search for industrial cities along the Somme. So badly informed and yet so confident.

[Waffenlandser]

Could that be because you inhabit a world of your own. Rawlinson sacked; thousands of white crosses; a distracted search for industrial cities along the Somme. So badly informed and yet so confident.

White crosses include the names on the Thiepval memorial to the missing AND French and German dead. Try to look beyond your narrow vision of the cemeteries. Please rebut my remarks on Rawlinson with facts.

[Robert Dunlop]

Name me just one legitimate place of industrial substance between Albert and Bapaume. In prewar pictures I see more cows and sheep than factories.

Enfield Collector, you are absolutely right about the rural nature of the Somme battlefield. Why would you expect a battle to be fought to liberate a 'place of industrial substance'?

Robert

[IanA]

Please rebut my remarks on Rawlinson with facts.

(Sigh...)

OK - here's a fact. Rawlinson wasn't sacked.

[Pete1052]

This is a perennial dispute that crops up so often on the forum that many people don't bother to become involved. Click here to see another thread on the topic.

[Waffenlandser]

(Sigh...)

OK - here's a fact. Rawlinson wasn't sacked.

OK lets rephrase this then.

He was re assigned.

*sigh*

[Waffenlandser]

Enfield Collector, you are absolutely right about the rural nature of the Somme battlefield. Why would you expect a battle to be fought to liberate a 'place of industrial substance'?

Robert

fine. If you cant take places of Industrial importance and you cant advance more than a few yards a day, then by all means kill the cows and the sheep, as well as a couple of hundred thousand young men.

[IanA]

OK lets rephrase this then.

He was re assigned.

*sigh*

Do let us know what you imagine he was 're assigned' to.

[dundeesown]

fine. If you cant take places of Industrial importance and you cant advance more than a few yards a day, then by all means kill the cows and the sheep, as well as a couple of hundred thousand young men.

That sounds a bit more like your own history from the not so far off past .

[T8HANTS]

I presume that in order to be so confident that the High command were complete bunglers you have a master plan that would have succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of the ex-Boer bashers running our show. Given the constraints of men, training, equipment, battle field communications, etc, etc. What would you have done?

BTW punching a great hole into the German lines results in a salient, with the result the men are either captured or killed trying to escape the net, as the uncooperative Germans close the neck of the bag.

[Skipman]

What's your beef Enfield.Why not try argue your point,with a little manners.We would all be more inclined to give you a fair hearing if you didn't rub every one up the wrong way.I'm no expert,but have learnt much from many on this forum ,who are experts.I often drop clangers cos i don't know as much as others,but mostly i get a fair hearing because (i hope) i treat people with respect.Give it a go,i'll listen to what you have to say.It will be ok if i disagree at times ,won't it?

[burlington]

May I respectfully suggest that the Mods archive this particular item.

It is a long time since we have had such an argument, and frankly I for one won't be sorry if we never have another one.

Please Mods, bin this for all our sakes!

Martin

[Waffenlandser]

I presume that in order to be so confident that the High command were complete bunglers you have a master plan that would have succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of the ex-Boer bashers running our show. Given the constraints of men, training, equipment, battle field c night and sent my men in communications, etc, etc. What would you have done?

BTW punching a great hole into the German lines results in a salient, with the result the men are either captured or killed trying to escape the net, as the uncooperative Germans close the neck of the bag.

The Boer bashers were given a good thrashing by the Boers in case we forget. This was repeated on July I 1916 by the German army.

I would have allowed no five day barrage. I would have gone over the top at night or pre dawn. I would have sent the men in waves in light battle order and running from shelter to shelter. I would have avoided well fortified dugouts and bunkers. Bypassed them and taken them from behind in a pincer manuevre.

I would have taken the main objectives and held on and had the second waves come in earlier to reinforce. I would have ordered an orderly withdrawal if I saw the operation was failing. I would never have sent my men into uncut wire. I would not have underestimated the Enemy as did the leaders of that time.

[Waffenlandser]

May I respectfully suggest that the Mods archive this particular item.

It is a long time since we have had such an argument, and frankly I for one won't be sorry if we never have another one.

Please Mods, bin this for all our sakes!

Martin

If you cant shoot the messenger, then bury him.

Please show me where I have been unmannerly or rude. I have shown respect and never insulted a member of this forum.

I, OTOH have been shown little latitude by the forum regulars.

[Steven Broomfield]

...Yet another Yank rolls up to explain to us poor benighted Brits...

Tom,

Actually, I don't think we can take credit in this case.

Paul

You take the credit for most things

[Robert Dunlop]

fine. If you cant take places of Industrial importance...

No, no. My question is not emotively loaded. I am genuinely interested to know. Would you regard a place of industrial importance as a legitimate target for attack? I think you would, from the way you phrased this. Take Lens for example. Would that location have justified an attack in your opinion?

Robert

[Waffenlandser]

No, no. My question is not emotively loaded. I am genuinely interested to know. Would you regard a place of industrial importance as a legitimate target for attack? I think you would, from the way you phrased this. Take Lens for example. Would that location have justified an attack in your opinion?

Robert

My issue here is the SOMME and not Loos or Lens or Yper.

The objective of the Somme was to take the pressure off the French. No huge advance was planned such as Yper 3.

[IanA]

And Rawly?

[Andrew Hesketh]

Please Mods, bin this for all our sakes!

Tempted in one sense. We have been here a few times and it's unlikely that any new revelations will appear.

However, everyone is entitled to their view, even if it's unpopular. The thread has not gone off-topic and, whilst there's inevitably been a little edge to the cut and thrust of debate, it hasn't become overtly rude or nasty.

[T8HANTS]

The Boer bashers were given a good thrashing by the Boers in case we forget.

You forgot to mention we cheated by having 35 men in the field for every Boer under arms. Followed the American example of of concentration camps, and inadvertently wiped out an appalling number of women and children with disease, and partial starvation due to our completely inadequate supply system, but that was cock up over conspiracy.

I have a nice 96 Mauser in my collection it has nine notches up the side, I do not think the Boer who got it was counting girl friends. It arrived on the S.S. Pretoria in 1897. From our experiences with said Boers the British army learned to shoot, much to the BEF's immortal fame, but the lads of 1916 could not! We also went down a blind ally called the 1903 bandoleer equipment, and nearly had a Mauser of our own in the P14,

From the rest of your answer I guess you would have fought the Somme in 1917, when the men were fully trained, and could react to local changes and setbacks. Discovered that shrapnel did not cut wire as hoped, and H.E. only move it about a bit. Ensured that the communications and supply problems were overcome to sustain your men in light battle order. And you are still creating a salient!

[Waffenlandser]

quote name='T8HANTS' date='Oct 8 2008, 05:48 PM' post='1022510']

The Boer bashers were given a good thrashing by the Boers in case we forget.

You forgot to mention we cheated by having 35 men in the field for every Boer under arms. Followed the American example of of concentration camps, and inadvertently wiped out an appalling number of women and children with disease, and partial starvation due to our completely inadequate supply system, but that was cock up over conspiracy.

I have a nice 96 Mauser in my collection it has nine notches up the side, I do not think the Boer who got it was counting girl friends. It arrived on the S.S. Pretoria in 1897. From our experiences with said Boers the British army learned to shoot, much to the BEF's immortal fame, but the lads of 1916 could not! We also went down a blind ally called the 1903 bandoleer equipment, and nearly had a Mauser of our own in the P14,

From the rest of your answer I guess you would have fought the Somme in 1917, when the men were fully trained, and could react to local changes and setbacks. Discovered that shrapnel did not cut wire as hoped, and H.E. only move it about a bit. Ensured that the communications and supply problems were overcome to sustain your men in light battle order. And you are still creating a salient

One of the main reasons the Boers were able to beat the British, despite their small numbers was their mobility and speed while the Red Coats still did set piece battle formations as we saw on the Somme. The Boers were excellent at infiltration and cut and run tactics. It cost the British dearly, as did the set actions on the Somme where there was no room for alternate tactics. It cost the British at Sebastopol and at Omdurman. It cost them against our rebels during the war of independence.

Light Battle order does not include not using communications equipment. The telephone lines and heliographs did not work. Few of the runners made it alive. The carrier pigeons were confused. The elaborate discs and flags were chewed up by artillery. So what are we addressing here when the lack of communications is brought up? The smoke screens released at 0715 actually confused the men and hid signals.I fully agree. If the penetration on a narrow front was successful, there would have been several salients.

Finally my thanks to the mods who chose not to trash my thread. I am not a troll as was suggested at first. I dont post to win popularity contests. I search for the truth, no matter how the truth hurts. My family has fought for England in two wars, and have paid the price. I am no gum chewing "Yank"

Later tonight I will expand on Rawly.