waffenlandser

[Waffenlandser]

I know I am going to get chastised by the mods for going off topic, but the Boer war can be compared to the Somme. Lee Metfords against Mausers and the insistence of Kitchener, the architect of the Somme on outdated military strategies. For years the British army had fought against unarmed natives with spears and shields. This was the stuff of Empire. For the first time they encountered well armed and cunning opponents in the Boer war.

British tactics, little changed from the Crimea, used at Modder River, Magersfontein, Colenso and Spion Kop were incapable of winning battles against entrenched troops armed with modern magazine rifles. Every British commander made the same mistake; Buller; Methuen, Roberts and Kitchener. When General Kelly-Kenny attempted to winkle Cronje’s commandoes out of their riverside entrenchments at Paardeburg using his artillery, Kitchener intervened and insisted on a battle of infantry assaults; with the same disastrous consequences as Colenso, Modder River, Magersfontein and Spion Kop.

Some of the most successful British troops were the non-regular regiments; the City Imperial Volunteers, the South Africans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders, who more easily broke from the habit of traditional European warfare, using their horses for transport rather than the charge, advancing by fire and manouevre in loose formations and making use of cover, rather than the formal advance into a storm of Mauser bullets.

British Battles.com

They simply did not learn a lesson. They repeated this all over again on the Somme.

Famous Haig sayings.

much of the nature of the fighting taking place in the First World War was alien to Haig, a cavalry man through and through. He did not rate very highly the war's new weaponry. "The machine gun is a much over rated weapon," he said in 1915; he made similar remarks over the use of the tank.

"The way to capture machine guns is by grit and determination." Haig - 1915

"Success in battle depends mainly on morale and determination." Haig - 1907

In 1926, 10 years after the barbed wire and machinegun defences of the German Army had proven conclusively that the day of the Horse Cavalry was over Haig wrote "I believe that the value of the horse and the opportunity for the horse in the future are likely to be as great as ever. Aeroplanes and tanks are only accessories to the men and the horse, and I feel sure that as time goes on you will find just as much use for the horse - the well-bred horse - as you have ever done in the past".

"The nation must be taught to bear losses. No amount of skill on the part of the higher commanders, no training, however good, on the part of the officers and men, no superiority of arms and ammunition, however great, will enable victories to be won without the sacrifice of men's lives. The nation must be prepared to see heavy casualty lists." Haig June 1916 before the battle of the Somme

In World War 1 Douglas Haig butchered the flower of British youth in the Somme and Flanders without winning a single victory.

William Manchester, American Caesar; Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, 1979

Haig failed perhaps to see that a dead man cannot advance, and that to replace him is only to provide another corpse.

E. K. G. Sixsmith, British Generalship in the Twentieth Century, 1970

He might be, he surely was, unequal to the prodigious scale of events.

Winston Churchill, quoted in John Terraine, The Western Front, 1954

To sum it all up then

The battle of the Somme was one of the most bloody of the First World War, more British soldiers had been killed than in any other battle before it. It earned Haig the title 'Butcher of the Somme', after he unnecessarily sent thousands of British troops to their deaths. (He later did the same thing at the Third Battle of Ypres (Passchendaele) only this time it was the ANZAC's that paid the biggest price.)

He died in London on January 28th 1928.

[jim_davies]

The Boers won the Boer war? By remaining independent? By staying out of the Empire????

[Waffenlandser]

The Boers won the Boer war? By remaining independent? By staying out of the Empire????

yes they did. As did the Revolutionaries in 1776.

South Africans never considered themselves as serfs of the King.

Going off topic again.

meet me at any Boer war forum and lets duke it our there. Here you have me on home turf.

[truthergw]

yes they did. As did the Revolutionaries in 1776.

South Africans never considered themselves as serfs of the King.

Going off topic again.

meet me at any Boer war forum and lets duke it our there. Here you have me on home turf.

Why did The South Africans fight in the Great War?

[Waffenlandser]

Why did The South Africans fight in the Great War?

Big difference between a serf and a soldier.

[cockney tone]

Not wanting to fully engage in this very lively and interesting debate and moving slightly of topic, but could Enfield please recommend a Good Boer War Forum please?

Regards,

Scottie.

[Waffenlandser]

Not wanting to fully engage in this very lively and interesting debate and moving slightly of topic, but could Enfield please recommend a Good Boer War Forum please?

Regards,

Scottie.

Boer War

[truthergw]

This thread has brought back some memories of times spent with my grandfather and his cronies around remembrance day when I was around 13 years old. Somehow the topic of Haig came up and ALL believed he should have been executed for treason for the way he sacrificed the soldiers for little gain. While I know little of the subject I do remember the mutual hatred of these old soldiers for a man who they felt had caused much suffering. The vehemence of these gentlemen has remained with me since (I am now 60) and has probably coloured my perspective ever since.

Warren

Both of my Grandfathers died of wounds so I never got the chance to discuss the war with them. Both my Grannies hated all generals and all they stood for. I imbibed butchers and bunglers with my mother's milk. I have done my own reading since then and I believe they were wrong. ( Sorry Grans!) I did not talk with my grandfathers but I did a lot of talking with other old soldiers. I am old enough to have worked alongside them. I know that the attitude of ex-soldiers to Haig took a big turn in the 30s when there ware a number of books, written after his death, criticising him and his fellow commanders. In the years from the end of the war until his death, he was revered as a hero and the victor of the Great War along with Marshal Foch. When he died, the shows of respect in London and Edinburgh did not indicate anything other than a sense of great loss. Lloyd George's war memoirs had a profound effect on the opinions of the ordinary people of Britain. He was revered as a champion of the working class. When he presented his character assassination of Haig and the Brass Hats, people were not only shocked, they felt let down. The man whom they had revered as a victorious hero was a callous bungler. Combined with the burgeoning pacifism of the times, this became the accepted version of the Great War. Only when we read Lloyd George's memoirs for ourselves and compare his caricatures with the known truths, do we realise how badly he traduced the reputations of the High Command. Lloyd George fell from grace in a political scandal and never was restored to any position of political influence. This rankled with him and by the 1930s, he was a very bitter old man. Finally, I make this point. Any critic of Haig as CiC has to explain why he was not replaced as Sir John French had been in 1915.

[Waffenlandser]

Finally, I make this point. Any critic of Haig as CiC has to explain why he was not replaced as Sir John French had been in 1915.

Haig was a personal friend of the King and had all the social contacts of the upper class aristocracy.

It is only now that less emotionaly loaded issues really bring Haig's failures to light.

Your Grannies, like all the widows and mothers of that time were correct in their assessment of Haig. The old soldiers were still awed by the Brass hats. The same awe that sent them in their tens of thousands into the valley of death. A valley carved by Haig.

When he died, the shows of respect in London and Edinburgh did not indicate anything other than a sense of great loss.

Viewing the Thiepval memorial and the Somme cemeteries fills me with a greater sense of loss than Haig's death.

[jim_davies]

Nice try, if but losing their independent republics, becoming part of the British Empire were what you consider a Boer victory, I would love to know what you would consider a defeat. As for comparing the situation of the Boers in 1902 with that of American Colonists in the 1776? I am truly shocked...didn't realize Washington sued for peace, that the USA become of Dominion of the British Empire, that their remained substanial British garrisons in the US, that US foreign policy was handled from London, that the monarch remained on the on the coinage....

As for "serfs", WTF? Serfdom disappeared in the Middle Ages, or is this another area of history which you are applying your own brand of logic?

No serious offense meant, but I honesty feel dumber reading your posts.

[Waffenlandser]

but I honesty feel dumber reading your posts.

your problem and not mine.

I dont believe there are any British garrisons in SA today. The insignia on the coins is the Water Buffalo and no QE2.

Like the US South Africa is not governed from Whitehall and does not get the final say regarding justice from the Privy Council.

A tad out of touch I would surmise.

[truthergw]

Haig was a personal friend of the King and had all the social contacts of the upper class aristocracy.

It is only now that less emotionaly loaded issues really bring Haig's failures to light.

Your Grannies, like all the widows and mothers of that time were correct in their assessment of Haig. The old soldiers were still awed by the Brass hats. The same awe that sent them in their tens of thousands into the valley of death. A valley carved by Haig.

Viewing the Thiepval memorial and the Somme cemeteries fills me with a greater sense of loss than Haig's death.

My question to you was why South Africa sent soldiers to fight in the Great War. The other post was directed to wcfree2 with whom I hoped to perhaps enjoy a rational debate. Incidentally, who do you think won the Zulu and Matabele Wars?

[Waffenlandser]

My question to you was why South Africa sent soldiers to fight in the Great War. The other post was directed to wcfree2 with whom I hoped to perhaps enjoy a rational debate. Incidentally, who do you think won the Zulu and Matabele Wars?

off topic. Try another tangent.

The South Africans sent soldiers to both wars. Like the Americans it was not loyalty to the Crown but to fight tyrrany.

Incidentally, who do you think won the Zulu and Matabele Wars?

yes indeed. Wars fought against unarmed naked men, and they still took casualties.

When the British army came up agaist a more advanced foe, the were soundly thrashed and fled like a disorganised rabble.

The Battle of Majuba Hill

[jim_davies]

"I dont believe there are any British garrisons in SA today. The insignia on the coins is the Water Buffalo and no QE2."

And directly after the Boer War, and for several decades afterwards what was the situation? Not as you describe...

As for the "your problem not mine"...yes it is my problem when I have to trawl through unedcuated, ill-informed drivel.

Also still waiting for you to actually make a coherent agrument as to your assertion that the Boers won the Boer War...not expecting anything rational nor logical though. And to your assertion that the outcome of the Boer War and AWoI was the same...

[Waffenlandser]

"I dont believe there are any British garrisons in SA today. The insignia on the coins is the Water Buffalo and no QE2."

And directly after the Boer War, and for several decades afterwards what was the situation? Not as you describe...

As for the "your problem not mine"...yes it is my problem when I have to trawl through unedcuated, ill-informed drivel.

Also still waiting for you to actually make a coherent agrument as to your assertion that the Boers won the Boer War...not expecting anything rational nor logical though. And to your assertion that the outcome of the Boer War and AWoI was the same...

attack my message. Not me.

[truthergw]

I had rather hoped to ignore you and hold a discussion with some of the other contributors. There are productive discussions to be had about Haig and his contribution to the war but it requires some facility in rational argument. So far, you have displayed none. The message I am receiving from you is half clown, half troll. I think I will bow out of this thread and wait for another.

[Waffenlandser]

I had rather hoped to ignore you and hold a discussion with some of the other contributors. There are productive discussions to be had about Haig and his contribution to the war but it requires some facility in rational argument. So far, you have displayed none. The message I am receiving from you is half clown, half troll. I think I will bow out of this thread and wait for another.

attack my messge. Not me. There is no strong arm forcing you to double click on my thread.

[jim_davies]

So you aren't even bothering to back up your "message" now?

[Waffenlandser]

So you aren't even bothering to back up your "message" now?

because of your name calling, esp a troll, I am done with you.

[jim_davies]

Where did I call you a "troll"?

Guilty conscience perhaps?

[PGL]

because of your name calling, esp a troll, I am done with you.

Can the rest of us be done with you?

Is anyone else getting tired of having this section of the forum dominated by this thread?

Does anyone else find it ironic?

"Haig didn't learn. He kept making the same mistakes over and over again. He kept sending men to their deaths."

When will you learn? Aren't you making the same mistakes over and over again? Aren't you constantly sending your own posts to certain death because of your ill informed logic?

If you've nothing new or insightful to say, you've had your 15 minutes of fame, now let it go.

[ian turner]

EC,

Let's continue with the Boer tactics idea as applied to the Great War circumstances. Would you agree that by the time of the Somme battles it would have been too late to employ such tactics (trench system from the sea to the Swiss border)?

Thus for the Boer tactics it would have required the open warfare of the very start in 1914?

How would you have handled the counter to the German forces moving through Belgium and into Northern France, so as to achieve German withdrawal or surrender, including freeing of occupied territory. Also keeping casualty figures to the minimum, and with the British forces still largely at home/deployed overseas, no U S involvement, no tanks, no landing craft, no parachute brigades, limited machinegun availability, little more than box-kite aircraft as airpower, and only the original BEF strength to hand?

Ian

[truthergw]

Smuts fought on the losing side against Haig in the Boer War and when sent by Lloyd George to France in 1918, to find a replacement, had to admit that there wasn't one.

[Waffenlandser]

Can the rest of us be done with you?

Is anyone else getting tired of having this section of the forum dominated by this thread?

Does anyone else find it ironic?

"Haig didn't learn. He kept making the same mistakes over and over again. He kept sending men to their deaths."

When will you learn? Aren't you making the same mistakes over and over again? Aren't you constantly sending your own posts to certain death because of your ill informed logic?

If you've nothing new or insightful to say, you've had your 15 minutes of fame, now let it go.

Attack my message and not me. You are violating the most basic principles of academic debating.

Still on the steep portion of the learning curve I would deduce.

[Waffenlandser]

EC,

Let's continue with the Boer tactics idea as applied to the Great War circumstances. Would you agree that by the time of the Somme battles it would have been too late to employ such tactics (trench system from the sea to the Swiss border)?

Thus for the Boer tactics it would have required the open warfare of the very start in 1914?

How would you have handled the counter to the German forces moving through Belgium and into Northern France, so as to achieve German withdrawal or surrender, including freeing of occupied territory. Also keeping casualty figures to the minimum, and with the British forces still largely at home/deployed overseas, no U S involvement, no tanks, no landing craft, no parachute brigades, limited machinegun availability, little more than box-kite aircraft as airpower, and only the original BEF strength to hand?

Ian

the issue, and the basic aims of this thread is the Somme and not 1914 where I have no gripe.

trench raids were similar to the Boer Kommando tactics. Too few of them however and they did not penetrate in depth. Most were intelligence gathering forays.