waffenlandser

[ian turner]

the issue, and the basic aims of this thread is the Somme and not 1914 where I have no gripe.

trench raids were similar to the Boer Kommando tactics. Too few of them however and they did not penetrate in depth. Most were intelligence gathering forays.

OK, but then how would you employ Boer tactics on the Western front, inlcuding the Somme, in 1916?

Ian

[Waffenlandser]

OK, but then how would you employ Boer tactics on the Western front, inlcuding the Somme, in 1916?

Ian

Fire Haig put Cronje or De La Rey in charge. Teach the Tommies to shoot like the Boers. Remember the Boers were fighting for their homes and country and not the cow pastures of another country. The Tommies did not have to avenge the deaths of their loved ones in concentration camps in Ceylon.

There no trenches in the veldt.here were koppies and thorn scrub. Apples and oranges to compare the two theatres of operations.

[ian turner]

OK, and what would Cronje or De La Rey's tactics actually be? I mean the actual tactics on the ground bearing in mind the relative positions of allies and enemy alike.

[Waffenlandser]

OK, and what would Cronje or De La Rey's tactics actually be? I mean the actual tactics on the ground bearing in mind the relative positions of allies and enemy alike.

would not have dug trenches. reissued the troops with mausers. used fast South African veldt horses.

ps. I do believe you are trying to ambush me by leading this thread to off topic deletion.

[ian turner]

EC,

I have no intention of going off-topic, sir. This is bang on Forum stuff, on topic for the Forum, on topic for this thread.

So, to continue:

You have replaced Haig, promoted Cronje and De La Rey and issued the troops with fast SA thoroughbreads and Mauser rifles. Don't forget that this is 1916 and you are already in trenches. Fast horses aren't going to get you anywhere that will engage with the enemy as far as I can see. So now where do you go with them? Towards the wire and Spandaus?

The French, the rest of the Allies and the British Empire are awaiting your next order, you are in the driving seat. What do we do next, please?

[Steven Broomfield]

EC, I'm intrigued by your claim that South Africans fought in the Great war because they opposed tyranny.

How does that square with the Union alone putting down the Boer Rebellion is 1914? There we had a group of disaffected Boers rising against the British/Boer government (presumably in vague support of German 'tyranny'), yet that rebellion being put down by forces largely led by ex-Boer fighters on the 1899-1901 period (such as Smuts and Reitz).

I suggest (if you haven't) that you read Denys Reitz's various memoirs, in which he describes how, as a very disaffected Boer (who continued as a 'Bitter Ender' after the peace of Vereeniging (where the Boers confirmed their victory by surrendering), who then took voluntary exile until persuaded by Smuts to return and help to forge a new South Africa. If you have read his books, then I suggest you try again and take the blinkers off.

I also suspect that the SA troops who fought against the Senussi in the Western Desert weren't worrying about tyranny; they were just helping the Mother Country.

I find this whole thread interesting: every time it goes off topic, that route is started by yourself as a way to 'prove' yet again that the British generals weren't much cop. Yet every time your assertions are challenged, there you go again complaining the thread's off topic.

Interesting, too, that despite winning the Boer War, and leaving the Commonwealth in the 60's (over apartheit), the Republic of South Africa has chosen to rejoin as a Republic within the Commonwealth.

I don't think you're a troll: I think you do sincerely believe what you're saying. It's also impressive that you see everything in black and white, right and wrong; no ability to see that various shades of grey exist, and that generals (like all mortals) combine a bit of good and a bit of bad.

Hey ho. Onwards and upwards.

[Waffenlandser]

In order to fully understand the Boer war, you have to understand the deep diversity of cultures and ethnic makeups of South Africa. The Boer war was not about South Africa, it was about a tiny minority of malcontents, dissatisfied with colonialism and Empire. They wanted freedom as did the Indians and the rest of the former colonies. Ghandi won no victories on the field of battle, but he won his own private war. Same as the Boers who surrended their war but won battle against British colonialism in 1948 when the staunchly pro British Jannie Smuts was voted out and the United Party never voted in again. The minority Boers were in power until 1994 when their apartheid regime ended.

The Boers never represented South Africa and still dont. Today they occupy a tiny settlement called Orania. The Boer war was fought in the desolate hinterland of South Africa, as seen by the sparse graves in Natal and the Karoo. The people who lived in the cities were oblivious to Colenso, Majuba and Spion Kop.

When it came time to fight in 1914, South Africans joined up for various reasons. Each group had its own ideology and agendas. The Malans, Dupree's and Dewets were of Hugenot stock, coming from Flanders, Belgium and Northern France. Flemish is very close to modern Afrikaans. They fought to avenge the devastation of their ancestoral homes. Not all Afrikaners are Boers. Many were of mixed British descent like in my case. They joined up to support their King. They still called England home. Their hero was Jannie Smuts, a staunch British supporter to the day he died. Then there were the pure English South Africans who paid all their loyalty to King and Country and flocked to the colours. The Cape Colourds were staunchly pro British and formed the Cape Corps and went to fight for a country they had never seen. The Black South Africans went where they were told to go and cared lesson whose side they fought. The British victory in 1901 was a Pyrric victory to say the least.

Britain went to war to rescue "plucky Belgium" South Africans went to war to either fight for Britain or fight against Germany. The war in South West and East Africa was clear. South African security was threatenend. Delville Wood is a long long way from Cape Town.

Please do not even try to compare the Battle Of Colenso to the Somme. Different times. Different objectives and different leaders. All I was trying to do was to show how the British military practice of marching in fixed and pre planned formations was doomed as seen in the Boer War and how Haig, as an officer who partook in that war should have learned a lesson. To imply that Boer Kommandos should have stormed the trenches on the Somme is ludicrous. Its the principle Steve. Not the actual practice I am trying to make clear here.

South Africa never left the Commonwealth because of Apartheid. The British practiced apartheid long before the South Africans did. South Africa left the Commonwealth because of long festerng wounds from long ago. They did, as you may well know, rejoin the Commonwealth for trade reasons and not loyalty to the Crown. South Africans are more concerned about markets for their wine and fruit than bowing and curtseying before the Queen.

To all of you who have contributed or even taken time to participate in this thread, now ready for the scrap heap. I give my sincerest thanks. I have learned more than I have ever dreamed of. I take nothing personally. Its all in the spirit of debate and an attempt to keep history alive and NEVER, EVER, let the sacrifices of the boys and men of 1916 be forgotten. The last of the old soldiers are all but gone, and its us and our children who keep the flame burning. "From failing hands they pass the torch"

I issue an invitation to all of you. On July 1st 2009, I will be at my usual spot in the Sunken Lane opposite Baumont Hamel. I am the 5 ft. 8" old guy with grey hair and looking all my 70 years of age. I wear my Enfield Tee shirt and my khaki trousers. I have a US army back pack with my camera and binoculars.

I would like nothing more to meet any of you and share some time together.

Perhaps at 0730 we can share a moment of silence together and offer our prayer that this never happens again and remember the men to who we all owe so much.

regards and thanks.

EC.

[Steven Broomfield]

Good luck to you mate. I doubt I'll be there, but if I am, I'll look out for you. I'm the good-looking one with the moustache.

[Guest]

Fair enough EC.You're certainly a fighter,and if i can be there,i'll look for you too,and shake your hand.Cheers Mike

[ian turner]

NEVER, EVER, let the sacrifices of the boys and men of 1916 be forgotten. The last of the old soldiers are all but gone, and its us and our children who keep the flame burning.

EC - I think we can all agree to that.

Cheers

Ian