help required please

[ninawoolard2000]

Please could anyone help - i am looking for information about the 1st rifle bn that were based on minister on the isle of sheppy in kent just before or just after the war. In particular a sargent by the name of Andrew Ford. Approx age was 33 and was a widower when arriving on the isle. I am not sure how to go about finding if this was a reserve bn. thank you

[stiletto_33853]

Nina,

If it is the Rifle Brigade you thinking of the 5th & 6th Battalions (Reserve) were based on the Isle of Sheppey. Not near my reference books at the moment but I seem to remember the 5th was at Minster.

Andy

[nhclark]

Andy is correct. It was the 5th. In August 1914 th 5th (Reserve) Battalion, Rifle Brigade was at Winchester. On mobilization it moved to Minster, where it remained as part of the Thames and Medway Garrison. It was a training/depot battalion. See http://www.1914-1918.org/rb.htm

Another reference says that wounded Rifle Brigade soldiers were sent to the 5th Battalion for recuperation. See http://www.arrington.org.uk/commemorations_four.asp

The following might be of assistance - worth an e-mail anyway: http://greatwarrifleman.net/index.htm

Noel

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Noel,

Chris Goodfellow (a local friend) is absolutely correct. The 5th was the battalion the Riflemen went back to when returning injured from the front to recuperate. When they had recuperated sufficiently they went to the 6th Battalion, also on the Isle of Sheppey, for more training until they were shipped overseas again.

The 5th & 6th also formed part of the Southern Thames Garrison, with the 14th & 15th Rifle Brigade, initially based at Southend-on-Sea, forming part of the Northern Thames Garrison.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Hi Noel,

Chris Goodfellow (a local friend) is absolutely correct. The 5th was the battalion the Riflemen went back to when returning injured from the front to recuperate. When they had recuperated sufficiently they went to the 6th Battalion, also on the Isle of Sheppey, for more training until they were shipped overseas again.

The 5th & 6th also formed part of the Southern Thames Garrison, with the 14th & 15th Rifle Brigade, initially based at Southend-on-Sea, forming part of the Northern Thames Garrison.

Andy

The sister regiment, the King's Royal Rifle Corps, operated a parallel structure with 5/KRRC & 6/KRRC also close by on the Isle of Sheppey, at Sheerness and Queensborough respectively, and 14/KRRC & 15/KRRC close to Southend. 15/KRRC were at Westcliff-On-Sea, but I can't remember exactly where 14/KRRC were.

They shared similar garrison duties to the RB.

An MIC search throws up several "A Ford"s in the RB and KRRC. However if you're certain about Minster, then he must be an RB man.

There's a Serjeant A W Ford on the DCM and MM gallantry lists:

Sjt Andrew Ford, S/7535, Rifle Brigade - DCM and MM Lists

on the campaign medal lists:

Rfn, later Sjt Arthur W Ford, S 7535, Rifle Brigade, campaign medals entry

[Edit: this is misleading! See Post #12 further on! Mark]

[Further Edit: no it isn't! See even further on! Mark]

Could this be him?

If so, then Andy should be able to tell you his Service battalion pretty quickly.

His "S" prefixed Service Number points to him being an early Kitchener volunteer.

A caveat: there are some other possibles that would need to be excluded before we get too excited!

Cheers,

Mark

[The Inspector]

Hi Nina

Have you any further personal info. re Andrew Ford other than born app.1885 and a widower 1918ish. Where was he born,any addresses, late wife's name any other relatives. Can then search on Ancestry Service/Pensions records because you can't trust what comes up on their lists.

Regards Barry

[ninawoolard2000]

The sister regiment, the King's Royal Rifle Corps, operated a parallel structure with 5/KRRC & 6/KRRC also close by on the Isle of Sheppey, at Sheerness and Queensborough respectively, and 14/KRRC & 15/KRRC close to Southend. 15/KRRC were at Westcliff-On-Sea, but I can't remember exactly where 14/KRRC were.

They shared similar garrison duties to the RB.

An MIC search throws up several "A Ford"s in the RB and KRRC. However if you're certain about Minster, then he must be an RB man.

There's a Serjeant A W Ford on the DCM and MM gallantry lists:

Sjt Andrew Ford, S/7535, Rifle Brigade - DCM and MM Lists

on the campaign medal lists:

Rfn, later Sjt Arthur W Ford, S 7535, Rifle Brigade, campaign medals entry

Could this be him?

If so, then Andy should be able to tell you his Service battalion pretty quickly.

His "S" prefixed Service Number points to him being an early Kitchener volunteer.

A caveat: there are some other possibles that would need to be excluded before we get too excited!

Cheers,

Mark

Thank you, Thank You just to know his name is listed somewhere has brought me great joy ( ) this gentleman is my great grand father and went missing in approx 1925 he was not heard from after that date. My cousins and I are desperatley trying to find any information on him or photos as we do not have anything and our parents did not speak of this.

His full name was Andrew William Ford rank. Sarjent R.B. based at Minster Camp. He married my nan in sept 1916 he was 35 years of age. We do not even know where he came from (town or county) we only have the marraige certificate. So your help is really appreciate

[ninawoolard2000]

Hi Nina

Have you any further personal info. re Andrew Ford other than born app.1885 and a widower 1918ish. Where was he born,any addresses, late wife's name any other ralatives. Can then search on Ancestry Service/Pensions records because you can't trust what comes up on their lists.

Regards Barry

Thank you for your reply the only information i hold is the following

Mariage Certificate:

information as follows

Date Married: September 9th 1916

ANDREW WILLIAM FORD 35 WIDOWER Sarjent RB Minister Camp Father: William John Ford(dec) Retired Master of Navy.

May Beal 22 Spinster 1 Hooks Row Father George Thomas Beal Caretaker

Married at the Abbey Church Minister Isle of Sheppy

Dont know if this may help. We have no other docuements about him from where he came from or where he was born

your help is appreciated.

[DMannus]

Evening

If your Nan's maiden's name is Beal their marriage is listed on free BMD list.

1897 census shows him at William Street, Milton in Kent. Father William and Mother Lydia.

1987 census shows him at Medina Road, West Cowes born at East Cowes. Father not recorded - Mother Lydia 'wife of a quartermaster'.

Hope this helps.

David

[The Inspector]

Hi Nina

Andrew William Ford b.1880 East Cowes, Kent son of William John Ford b.1845, Worthing Sussex and Lydia E Ford b.1856 Icklesham, Sussex.

1871 census William John on Cruiser "Desmond" @ Cowes shown as "AB" (ask someone else, it's his rating) 26yrs Worthing, Sussex.

1881 Andrew and his mum at Medina Rd, Milton, Gravesend, Kent. also present Eliza J.Wist - Visitor, 11yrs and Andrew WIST , visitor!! Must be a connection.

1891 William J, Lydia E, Henry Ford, Nephew, George A, Florence B and Andrew W @ Milton, Kent.

1901 8 John St., Milton William J. Ford, 57 yrs Naval Pensioner with wife Lydia E son George 19 and daughter Florence B 16yrs

Hope this helps.

Regards Barry

[The Inspector]

Hi Nina Here's a bit more, William John Ford married Lydia Emma Fellowes @ Rye, Kent/Sussex 2nd qtr 1878 Volume 2b Page 9. If you want any more help pse. send me a PM

Regards Barry

[MBrockway]

There's a Serjeant AW Ford on the DCM and MM gallantry lists:

Sjt Andrew Ford, S/7535, Rifle Brigade - DCM and MM Lists

[Edit: my wording of the label for this link is wrong: the MIC is for Sjt AW Ford]

on the campaign medal lists:

Rfn, later Sjt Arthur W Ford, S 7535, Rifle Brigade, campaign medals entry

Could this be him?

Cheers,

Mark

Pals,

Ooops! Getting sloppy in my old age

The MIC entry for the campaign medals is for Arthur W Ford, not Andrew Ford, while the MIC for the gallantry medal merely has Ford, AW. They share the same Service Number of S/7535, so they are clearly the same man.

Unless there's a transcription error between the MIC index what's actually written on MIC Card (not unknown ) then this is not our man, Andrew Ford.

Is there a Pal out there with Ancestry access who could check the actual MIC Cards for "Arthur" Ford S/7535 to confirm he definitely is "Arthur" and not "Andrew"?

If he is Arthur, then sorry for starting a false trail.

At least the trail through the civilian records begun by the other Pals looks accurate!

Cheers,

Mark

[nhclark]

Here's one of his medal cards from www.ancestry.co.uk:

and here's the link to his DCM notice in the London Gazette:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

Although www.ancestry.co.uk shows him as previously serving in the 6th Battalion, it was actually the 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade.

Here's the link to the actual citation for the DCM:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

Another mention in the Gazette is here:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

FreeBMD shows three possible children: Joan E. Ford (1920), Henry Ford (1923), and Ronald G. Ford (1928), all born to mother with surname Beal, and all registered at Sheppey Registration District.

Finally, here's the other medal card from ancestry, wrongly indexed under the Christian name "Arthur":

This should all help you compile the story of Andrew.

Noel

[stiletto_33853]

1st Battalion, overseas 5/1/15 and transferred to Class Z 18/5/19.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Pals,

[Edit: while I was drafting this, Andy and Noel cracked it - this is now superceded!]

Doing a National Archive MIC search for the Surname "Ford", Regiment containing "Rifles" and First Name either initial "A" or beginning with "A", brought back a number of Medal Cards, but only these three matched to either "A Ford", "A W Ford", "Axxxx Ford" or "Axxxx W Ford":

#1: Ford, A, King's Royal Rifle Corps, R/9365, Private (Gallantry Medal Rolls)

#2: Ford, A W, Rifle Brigade, S/7535, Serjeant (Gallantry Medal Rolls)

#3: Ford, Arthur William, King's Royal Rifle Corps, R14855, Private

I could find no Medal Cards for "Andrew Ford" nor "Andrew W Ford"

Using the Service Numbers, I then did a bit of cross referencing between the Service Medal Roll index entries and the Gallantry Medal Roll index entries, and found additional Medal Cards for #1 and #2 which give names rather than just initials:

#1b: Ford, Albert, King's Royal Rifle Corps, R 9365, Private (Service Medal Rolls)

#2b: Ford, Arthur W, Rifle Brigade, S 7535, Pte, later Serjt (Service Medal Rolls)

So although #1 and #2 originally looked promising (#2 is the chap in my early Post), the only way they could be our Andrew William Ford, is if there's been a transcription error - a remote possibility.

Much more likely, given Andrew's age is that he was permanently attached to 5/RB or 6/RB and never went overseas, so was not entitled to any of the service medals, and therefore would not have an MIC index entry!

What do you all think? Does that stack up?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Ha!

So I was right all along and it was a transcription error! S/7535 is our man!

And I've just spent over an hour running esoteric searches with the National Archive's whacky MIC Search Engine - LOL!

That really has convinced me of the value of Ancestry - time to get the plastic out I guess

Many thanks Noel and Andy!

Cheers,

Mark

[The Inspector]

Hi all

Am I missing something here? Doesn't Aussienoel's pic. of the MIC show Andrew written in. I think it is the man we are looking for, wrong transcription.

Barry

[stiletto_33853]

Mark,

Re the 14th KRRC, I seem to remember they were at Aveley at one time and that the C.O. presented a young girl from Southend a gift for saving her little brother during a Zeppelin attack on Southend-on-Sea. The father of these two was in the Battalion at the time, see if I can find the article for you.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Andrew William

[MBrockway]

Hi all

Am I missing something here? Doesn't Aussienoel's pic. of the MIC show Andrew written in. I think it is the man we are looking for, wrong transcription.

Barry

No Barry, you're not - that's exactly why Ancestry is so valuable: my digging was all based on the National Archive MIC Index Search Engine, which has his Medal Card mistranscribed as "Arthur" instead of "Andrew".

If Noel hadn't had access to the actual Medal Card via Ancestry then the only way to check for a miss transcription would have been to pay for the National Archive's PDF image ... or go to Kew!

Andy's now hoping Noel's still awake to do the same on another RB topic Another Ancestry scan needed

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Mark,

Re the 14th KRRC, I seem to remember they were at Aveley at one time and that the C.O. presented a young girl from Southend a gift for saving her little brother during a Zeppelin attack on Southend-on-Sea. The father of these two was in the Battalion at the time, see if I can find the article for you.

Andy

Now you mention it Andy, Aveley/Purfleet does sound familiar.

Cheers,

Mark

[ninawoolard2000]

Hello Barry

Thank you for th information all of you have been a great help, if he had been at depot would ther have been any chance that he would have returned to france? my cousin seems to remeber his dad saying that?? i saw on another topic something about services coming on line in november? does this mean service records? My children have brought me a family tree make (deluxe ) with Ancestry connection would i be able to find out more with subscribing to this?

e='The Inspector' date='Oct 21 2008, 10:11 PM' post='1031354']

Hi Nina Here's a bit more, William John Ford married Lydia Emma Fellowes @ Rye, Kent/Sussex 2nd qtr 1878 Volume 2b Page 9. If you want any more help pse. send me a PM

Regards Barry

[MBrockway]

Hello Barry

Thank you for th information all of you have been a great help, if he had been at depot would ther have been any chance that he would have returned to france? my cousin seems to remeber his dad saying that??

Nina,

It looks like all our military jargon has obscured the real meaning of the posts above from Andy, Noel and myself! I'll try and summarise Andrew Ford's military career a little better for you and your cousins.

Your grandfather Andrew William FORD served as Serjeant Andrew FORD in the 1st Battalion, The Rifle Brigade.

His regimental Service Number was S/7535.

He volunteered shortly after the start of the war as one of the so-called Kitchener's men, and was posted into the 1st Battalion, Rifle Brigade (see comments further down though)

He arrived in France/Flanders on 5th January 1915.

By late 1915, if not earlier, he had been promoted to Serjeant.

Some time in late 1915 he was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. This is an award for distinguished service in the field for Warrant Officers, NCO's and lower ranks.

It is one medal lower than the Victoria Cross.

Here's the citation:

S/7535 Serjeant A. W. Ford, Depot, Rifle Brigade (formerly 1st Battalion).

For conspicuous gallantry. When everyone in his trench on a front of some hundred yards had been killed or wounded, except himself and an officer and two other men, and the enemy were within 200 yards, in force, Serjeant Ford and his companions, by moving up and down the trench and firing rapidly, bluffed the enemy into believing the trench was strongly occupied, and they held it until retirement that night. By their bravery and intrepidity they saved a break in the line, which would have prevented the safety of the subsequent withdrawal.

One of the Rifle Brigade specialists should be able to pin this Action down to a more specific time and place, as something so exceptional is likely to be mentioned in the battalion's War Diary.

By January 1916, he had been posted to the Rifle Brigade Depot in Minstry on the Isle of Sheppey. This was almost certainly after having been wounded and returned to England to recuperate. Technically, he was attached to 5th (Reserve) Battalion, Rifle Brigade.

It was probably here that he first met your grandmother, as there's no guarantee he would have been on Sheppey prior to leaving for France/Flanders in January 1915. His Service Number points to him being a volunteer, rather than a Regular (i.e. a professional soldier), but his posting to the 1st Battalion, who were Regulars and already overseas, gave him little time for training after he enlisted. Either he had previous military service, or he showed exceptional ability. It is also possible that he began his training with one of the volunteer Service battalions - 7th, 8th or 9th battalions would be the most likely. Andy would be the one to comment on all this.

It's likely he remained at the Rifle Brigade Depot until past his marriage to your grandmother, May BEAL, in September 1916.

Incidentally, did you spot from the marriage details that he was a widower and had already been married? There's a line of research there for you!

It is possible that he returned to France/Flanders after September 1916, but that will require further digging.

In May 1917 he was also awarded the Croix de Guerre by the French government. I am unclear whether this was for the same Act of Gallantry for which he won the DCM from the British, or a subsequent Act on returning to the Front (if indeed, he did ever return to the Front). The former is the more likely, but other Pals will no doubt advise.

He was finally discharged from the Army on 18th May 1919.

Your grandfather was clearly an exceptional man & a fine soldier.

I hope this makes his military record a little clearer.

The family history has already been well covered by Barry, David & Noel ... though there are still loose ends to follow up there too!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Nina,

Bingo! I've just found 20+ pages of Service Records on Ancestry for Andrew William Ford, born East Cowes c. 1880.

They relate to him enlisting for Short Service of 3 years in the Army followed by 9 years on the Army Reserve on 6th October 1902.

This was in the 5th Dragoon Guards with Service Number 6293

It looks like our theory about previous military experience was correct.

Also he would presumably have been on the Reserve until 2nd October 1914, so strictly speaking he was not a Kitchener volunteer, but rather a returning Army Reservist.

I shall peruse the Service Records over the weekend!

Sadly no sign of his Rifle Brigade Service Records though.

Cheers,

Mark

[The Inspector]

Hi Nina

Ancestry is worth every penny, without it you wouldn't have the information you have already got. I think Mark will agree.

Here's a bit more in 1901 Andrew Ford was boarding at 120 Stocks rd., Bermondsey with a Harry Mackley aged 25yrs, b. IOW, Hants. Both Customs Officers.So that is confirmed by his Ancestry Service records.

Happy Hunting, Regards Barry

Quick check on Ancestry Andrew William Ford married either Bessie Autrichan or Caroline Lee in 1907 @ Milton, Kent Vol 2a page 2077. Andrew was born March 1880 IOW Hants, Vol.2b page 602. If you want help searching just ask. Barry