help required please

[MBrockway]

Pals,

It gets more curious!

I'm still working through the earlier Service Records, but here's what I've found so far:

Andrew Ford, then a Customs House Officer, enlisted as Andrew William Ford, 6293, 5th Dragoon Guards on 6th October 1902 aged 22 yrs 8 months. His medical took place at 38 New Kent Road, London SE.

As Next of Kin he listed his father, William John FORD of 8, John Street, Gravesend, Kent, and his younger brother, George Albert FORD of the same address.

He seems to have been quartered in Canterbury apart from several short spells in hospital including 9 days for an ulcer.

He also had several short spells of absence without leave in Jan, Feb and Jun 1903 - during one of which he lost his uniform! - before he deserted on 9th October 1903!

The records include a Court Martial Form, but it is blank, presumably waiting for him to be brought before a court.

Perhaps this is why he was given a Kitchener volunteer's Service Number on enlisting into the Rifle Brigade?

Perhaps also it may be why he was attracted to the rifles regiments in particular - both the Rifle Brigade and King's Royal Rifle Corps had traditions of encouraging the independence and initiative of the individual soldier dating back to their origins as frontiersmen and skirmishers. Their deeds in Wellington's Peninsular Campaign are full of individual derring do!

They were probably regiments where a maverick would be much more likely to thrive rather than a traditional regiment of the Line.

The Rifle Brigade either did not discover his past history, or they decided to turn a blind eye to it. It certainly explains why he did not re-enlist in the 5th Dragoon Guards!

Whatever the case, an older and wiser Andrew Ford certainly thrived in the Flanders mud and brought great credit to his new regiment.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Hi Nina

Ancestry is worth every penny, without it you wouldn't have the information you have already got. I think Mark will agree.

Barry

Nina / Barry,

I only coughed up earlier this week, and Ancestry has already broken log jams on several of my research projects! So I deffo agree!

And since I opted for the 14 day free trial, I don't actually pay till after next week!

I would warn you though that it's very slow over a dial-up connection - it's taken me most of the afternoon to get the 30 odd pages of Andrew Ford's 1902/3 Service Record, which was exasperating ... especially as there's a half dozen misfiled pages from another man's record in the middle of it!!!!

You would be much better off using it with a Broadband connection.

Cheers,

Mark

[The Inspector]

Hi Nina/Mark

Before you subscribe to Ancestry I would DEFINITELY invest in Broadband, takes seconds.

Barry

[The Inspector]

Hi Nina

This research bug gets to me. Just to fill in a few gaps as Mark says. When you do get onto Ancestry I think you should follow this up

Andrew William Ford m May Beal 3rd qtr 1916 Vol 2a page 2155. May was born in 1894 according to the 1901 census when she was living at 1 Windmill Row, Minster, Sheppey, with her father George T b.1856 London, a Caretaker at the Board School, mother Margaret E b.1856, Newington, London brother Henry b.1885, sisters Edith E b.1886, Lizzie M. b.1891 and Liliian b.1897. all @ Minster. No doubt that's where Andrew met your Nan. As it appears that Andrew deserted in 1903, he must have had one heck of a reason to join up again!!! I have checked on Caroline Lee as stated before one of two who could have married Andrew in 1907. There is a Caroline Ford b.1884 died 1914,2nd qtr Gravesend, Kent. (2a,747) She was therefore only 30 yrs old and would fit in with the marriage as Andrew would have been 27 and she 23. By obtaining the marr. certs and death certs you can quickly confirm if this is in fact true. I don't think Andrew would have needed a better reason for joining up in 1915 than the death of his wife a few months earlier. Perhaps this is why he was so brave!!!

Regards Barry

[MBrockway]

Some time in late 1915 he was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal .......

Here's the citation:<B>

S/7535 Serjeant A. W. Ford, Depot, Rifle Brigade (formerly 1st Battalion).</B>

For conspicuous gallantry. When everyone in his trench on a front of some hundred yards had been killed or wounded, except himself and an officer and two other men, and the enemy were within 200 yards, in force, Serjeant Ford and his companions, by moving up and down the trench and firing rapidly, bluffed the enemy into believing the trench was strongly occupied, and they held it until retirement that night. By their bravery and intrepidity they saved a break in the line, which would have prevented the safety of the subsequent withdrawal.

Cheers,

Mark

Pals,

What we need here is a Rifle Brigade expert^* who can help pin this DCM Action down in time and space.

From the London Gazette dates, it was probably third or fourth quarter of 1915. Second Ypres is probably a bit too far back, and I don't think 1/RB were at the Battle of Loos.

Can anyone hunt through the 1st Rifle Brigade records to see if they can spot it?

1/RB were in 11th Brigade in 4th Division.

Nina - you might attract in the specialists if you edit the Topic title to mention Sjt Ford's name and his DCM. Just a thought!

^*.... now I wonder if the Nameless One is about just now! LOL!

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Found it, looking in the wrong time frame in 1915. It was indeed won in 2nd Battle of Ypres, May 3rd to be precise, wonder why it took so long to appear in the London Gazette??

This happened just south of the Hanebeek.

and to the south of the stream, in "A" Company's line, there was only Captain Railston and three men fit to use rifles. These four were a company in themselves. Led by Captain Railston, they raced up and down what remained of their trench, firing off rifles as though it were strongly held.

Quite an action reading it, 2 companies of the 1st Rifle Brigade had been decimated.

The enemy still seemed to be concentrating in the Hanebeek valley, but was still unable to make its mind up to attack. At 2 pm Colonel Seymour reported to 11th Brigade Headquarters that re-inforcements must be sent up at dusk.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

In one of the appendix of the War Diary it says:-

Battalion occupied a line of trenches extending from the northern slopes of Hill 37 across the Zonnebeke - Kersalaere road and across the Hanebeeke to a farm known as Canadian Dressing Station. It makes notes of a map in another Appendix but that appendix is missing from the War Diary.

He is mentioned in the War Diary (very rare occurance for the 1st to mention any but officers) and is mentioned in the Regimental History.

Andy

[MBrockway]

In one of the appendix of the War Diary it says:-

Battalion occupied a line of trenches extending from the northern slopes of Hill 37 across the Zonnebeke - Kersalaere road and across the Hanebeeke to a farm known as Canadian Dressing Station. It makes notes of a map in another Appendix but that appendix is missing from the War Diary.

He is mentioned in the War Diary (very rare occurance for the 1st to mention any but officers) and is mentioned in the Regimental History.

Andy

Fantastic info - many thanks Andy! I knew you'd come up trumps!

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Mark,

Got there in the end, 1st RB diary is all over the place found November 1914 listed as 1915 from the archives. I wonder why the 10 months delay before being listed in the L.G..

Nina, if you need a copy of the diary or Regimental account let me know.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Battalion occupied a line of trenches extending from the northern slopes of Hill 37 across the Zonnebeke - Kersalaere road and across the Hanebeeke to a farm known as Canadian Dressing Station. It makes notes of a map in another Appendix but that appendix is missing from the War Diary.

Andy

Nina / Andy,

Here's a map of the area as it was two years later in April 1917:

[from an extract of a Belgian trench map on croonaert's Paths of Glory website]

I have marked Hill 37, the Zonnebeke-Kersalaere road, and the Hanebeek.

Not sure of the exact location of the farm known as Canadian Dressing Station. I wondered about the Canadian Farm near Mousetrap Farm, but that is way too far to the west the other side of St Julien. Toronto Farm visible above is a possibility, but Andy's description makes it sound like it should be north of the Hanebeek. From the placenames, this is clearly an area with many Canadian connotations.

The farm just straddling the north edge of the extract to the west of the gridline is Wurst Farm.

Whatever the exact location of the Canadian Dressing Station, the area of Sjt Ford's 3rd May 1915 DCM action is definitely shown though.

Nina - FYI, this area is about 6km NE of the centre of Ypres.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[ninawoolard2000]

hello everyone, you guys have been so fanstatic where would i be without all of your knowledge and research. I shed a few tears while reading all of your notes. thank you all , just one thing how do i pm you?

nina

[ninawoolard2000]

Andy

Hi Mark,

Got there in the end, 1st RB diary is all over the place found November 1914 listed as 1915 from the archives. I wonder why the 10 months delay before being listed in the L.G..

Nina, if you need a copy of the diary or Regimental account let me know.

Hi Mark

if it is possible i would like a copy thank you.

[stiletto_33853]

Nina,

I have sent you a message containing my e-mail address, be a little patient though, at present I am inundated with requests.

Andy

[ninawoolard2000]

Hi Mark,

Got there in the end, 1st RB diary is all over the place found November 1914 listed as 1915 from the archives. I wonder why the 10 months delay before being listed in the L.G..

Nina, if you need a copy of the diary or Regimental account let me know.

Andy

Hi Andy if it is at all possible i would very much like a copy of the diary or reg account please could you email me with any details i need to send

thank you nina

[stiletto_33853]

Nina,

1st RB diary sent to you but read through the appendices, in this particular war diary you can learn far more from the appendices than the diary.

Hope this helps you a little.

Andy

[Guest jee_younger]

Please could anyone help - i am looking for information about the 1st rifle bn that were based on minister on the isle of sheppy in kent just before or just after the war. In particular a sargent by the name of Andrew Ford. Approx age was 33 and was a widower when arriving on the isle. I am not sure how to go about finding if this was a reserve bn. thank you

Nina, I am the Grand daughter of Andrew William Ford. He was born on 21st January 1880 at East Cowes. He married my Grandmother Caroline Lee on 26th December 1907. They had three children. My father Kenneth, Gertrude Kathleen, and Doris Agnes. Caroline died within a month of giving birth to Doris. For whatever reason the children were put into a Cottage Home and as far as I am aware saw little if anything of their father Andrew. My father spent the most of his life looking for him. I understand Andrew married your ancester May Beale in 1916 and had three more children. He may also have abandoned his second family. I am interested to learn what happened to him from 1925 until 1964 when he died. He certainly was awarded the DCM and I have the medal in my possession. This was given to me by my Dad before he died aged 84. I think he received it from his Aunt Florence. I have only just see your message having been a new registered member of the War Forum. I have read all the other messages and most of the information is correct but I have a lot of information regarding the ancestors of Andrew and Caroline if you want to know anything else. Andrew had another sibling George Albert but I never knew anything about him until recently. I don't know if he had any children or indeed if he kept in contact with Andrew Ford. The other members of the family all said they never heard from him after WW1 but I don't know if that was true. My Father was very bitter that he and his sisters had very hard lives after being abandoned. I hope you do pick up on this message and we can make contact.

Joy

[ninawoolard2000]

Nina, I am the Grand daughter of Andrew William Ford. He was born on 21st January 1880 at East Cowes. He married my Grandmother Caroline Lee on 26th December 1907. They had three children. My father Kenneth, Gertrude Kathleen, and Doris Agnes. Caroline died within a month of giving birth to Doris. For whatever reason the children were put into a Cottage Home and as far as I am aware saw little if anything of their father Andrew. My father spent the most of his life looking for him. I understand Andrew married your ancester May Beale in 1916 and had three more children. He may also have abandoned his second family. I am interested to learn what happened to him from 1925 until 1964 when he died. He certainly was awarded the DCM and I have the medal in my possession. This was given to me by my Dad before he died aged 84. I think he received it from his Aunt Florence. I have only just see your message having been a new registered member of the War Forum. I have read all the other messages and most of the information is correct but I have a lot of information regarding the ancestors of Andrew and Caroline if you want to know anything else. Andrew had another sibling George Albert but I never knew anything about him until recently. I don't know if he had any children or indeed if he kept in contact with Andrew Ford. The other members of the family all said they never heard from him after WW1 but I don't know if that was true. My Father was very bitter that he and his sisters had very hard lives after being abandoned. I hope you do pick up on this message and we can make contact.

Joy

Hello Joy,

Well what a shock, as you can understand finding out about ancestors . Grandad Andrew had 5 chrildren with nanny beal (may) unfortunatley, nanny died just before the 2nd world war, and grandad was no where to be seen. None of his children within this marraige ever spoke about him other than he was detatched. This was most probabley due to shell shock and the events he had seen while abroard. I am forwarding my email address so that we can go into more detail. effectively you have 7 cousins from this side who all have children .. but all of our parents born to nanny and grandad have died the eldest son of their marriage only died in september 08.

here is my email address: ninawoolard2000@yahoo.co.uk

hope to here from you soon

best wishes Nina

[Guest]

I am the Great Grandson of S/7535 Andrew William Ford.

 

My Great Grandmother was Caroline Lee, My Grandfather Kenneth Ford and Father Norman Ford. Our family ancestry is prior to Andrew marrying Nina`s grandmother in 1916. Caroline Lee having died previously.

 

First and foremost I would like to thank all of you who took the time and effort to piece together a lot of the puzzle. The time and effort you took to support Nina in her quest and the fact that from this thread two parallel families have been identified and made contact is appreciated. Fifteen years ago I had been putting a lot of the pieces together and if you thought this was interesting, believe me there is a lot more to reveal!

 

Joy and I will work in the New Year on pulling together the facts and make contact with Nina and her family (subject to their agreement).

 

I have a book being published in the autumn that has a chapter headed "DNA" that gives an insight into who I am and the cloth from which I am cut. As soon as it is released I will make a post as it is hopefully of historical interest to all. Particularly with respect to additional details on Andrews military career.

 

Once again,

 

Thank you all...........

 

[stiletto_33853]

Steve,

This might be of interest to you. This from Captain Railston's personal Diary:-

[Guest]

Thanks Stiletto.... very helpful. Really appreciate everyone’s efforts and time in sharing information.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What an interesting story, and just illustrates how long some stories take to unravel.

Andrew wasn't alone in 'disappearing' after the  Great War, and we have seen many such stories here over the years.

But it is surprising how much information there is available about this generation.

I think I am right in saying  (I may be wrong) that when the first post was made back in 2008, that service records had only recently become available online.

And as previous posters had noted, researching in those days on Dial-Up internet was laborious and slow.

And since then, the 1911 Census and the 1939 Register has opened up even more information. (You have located Andrew in 1939 I presume?).

 

This is your search,  Ford family, but please keep us informed of all your findings.

[The Inspector]

Hi Steve

Yes, please keep us up to date, Nina last visited the GWF in 2009 so hope your research keeps turning up trumps.

Regards Barry