2nd (Garrison) Btn Northumberland Fusiliers

[brimacombe]

Amongst the men I am currently researching (all from Holsworthy in North Devon), is 206418 Private A G Slade, died on active service 13th October 1918...

The Holsworthy Memorial Book has the following about him:-

He joined the [1/6th Devonshire] Territorials and with other Holsworthy boys sailed for India on the ‘Galeka’ in October 1914. He was with the Battalion when it landed in Basrah in January 1916 and was in the long march from Basrah to Dijailah in the attempted relief og Kuy. He contracted pneumonia on this march and died at the General Hospital, Magill from influenza in the epidemic of 1918. Alfred is buried in the Basra War Cemetery, Mesopotamia.

CWGC and SDGW both state that he was with the 2nd Garrison Btn Northumberland Fusilers, so must have been transferred I guess - but why? Where was the Btn in October 1918 (It was in Mesopotamia, but not sure where)? Why would he have been transferred from the 1/6th Devons (surely it couldn't have been because of his illness which would not have lasted too long before his death), so he must have been transferred prior to this...

Rather a vague post I know - but has anyone any ideas?

[brimacombe]

Have just located the medal index card for this man which definately suggests he was with the Garrison Btn for some time prior to his death. His regm. numbers are -

1/6th Devons (TA) 1672

1/6th Devons 265287

Northumberland Fus 206418

Amongst the men I am currently researching (all from Holsworthy in North Devon), is 206418 Private A G Slade, died on active service 13th October 1918...

The Holsworthy Memorial Book has the following about him:-

He joined the [1/6th Devonshire] Territorials and with other Holsworthy boys sailed for India on the 'Galeka' in October 1914. He was with the Battalion when it landed in Basrah in January 1916 and was in the long march from Basrah to Dijailah in the attempted relief og Kuy. He contracted pneumonia on this march and died at the General Hospital, Magill from influenza in the epidemic of 1918. Alfred is buried in the Basra War Cemetery, Mesopotamia.

CWGC and SDGW both state that he was with the 2nd Garrison Btn Northumberland Fusilers, so must have been transferred I guess - but why? Where was the Btn in October 1918 (It was in Mesopotamia, but not sure where)? Why would he have been transferred from the 1/6th Devons (surely it couldn't have been because of his illness which would not have lasted too long before his death), so he must have been transferred prior to this...

Rather a vague post I know - but has anyone any ideas?

[Chris_Baker]

Almost certainly transferred after being medically downgraded, but why ... possibly the pneumonia ... and it was after the renumbering of March 1917, when he changed from 1672 to 265287.

By the way, it's Kut and Dujailah.

[brimacombe]

Thanks for that Chris - thats a great start.

The spelling mistakes were mine, in transcribing the original - I guess it'll be a B- !!!

Almost certainly transferred after being medically downgraded, but why ... possibly the pneumonia ... and it was after the renumbering of March 1917, when he changed from 1672 to 265287.

By the way, it's Kut and Dujailah.

[Graham Stewart]

A very interesting and puzzling individual, who belongs to a small group of the 2nd(Garrison)Bn, N.F. who died in that region and yet I'm almost 100% certain the battalion never left India. What is also interesting is his number as this is a 4th Bn, N.F.(TF) number and it seems as though he was issued this purely as a matter of administration to ensure his Territorial origin.

Men who served with the 2nd Gsn Bn, NF normally were issued with five figure numbers in the 40000 or 50000 series, the vast majority having previously served wih other units, mainly from Western Command and not Northern Command as one would expect.

So it's a matter of trying to find out was there a detachment of the 2nd Gsn Bn,NF sent to Iraq or where these men earmarked and transferred to the 2nd Gsn Bn while in a Base Hospital?

[brimacombe]

Thanks Graham

It really is a bit of a puzzle! But, fingers crossed, someone might be able to put the pieces together and make sense of it all.

Your note about the allocation of his N F number is most interesting.

I can find very little information regarding the 2nd (Garrison) Bn, N.F. have you any idea of their strength etc?

Thanks again!

A very interesting and puzzling individual, who belongs to a small group of the 2nd(Garrison)Bn, N.F. who died in that region and yet I'm almost 100% certain the battalion never left India. What is also interesting is his number as this is a 4th Bn, N.F.(TF) number and it seems as though he was issued this purely as a matter of administration to ensure his Territorial origin.

Men who served with the 2nd Gsn Bn, NF normally were issued with five figure numbers in the 40000 or 50000 series, the vast majority having previously served wih other units, mainly from Western Command and not Northern Command as one would expect.

So it's a matter of trying to find out was there a detachment of the 2nd Gsn Bn,NF sent to Iraq or where these men earmarked and transferred to the 2nd Gsn Bn while in a Base Hospital?

[Graham Stewart]

I'm thousands of miles away from home and my notes, but if I remember correctly the 2nd Gsn Bn, N.F. was a large battalion well over a 1,000 strong. It was originally made of members of the Tyneside Scottish and Irish who were physically unfit for service in France. As time wore on it was filled out with many more men from other units, many of whom were recoving from wounds or sickness.

The decision to send them to India was probably done in good faith as it was probably thought the climate would aid their recovery compared to Garrison duties in Northern Europe. However for men who were already weakened by wounds and sickness India certainly wasn't the place to be and the battalion had a large proportion of men who died as a result.

The Battalion itself wasn't static either and seems to have travelled extensively throughout the region, but this wouldn't be unusual as this sort of thing happend prior to the War with the regular battalions who served there moving from the plains to the hill districts during seasonal training or as the security situation warranted.

Just remembered as I'm typing this that I do have some photo's and a set of notes at home from someone who actually served with the Battalion in India, but it'll be 3weeks before I get a look at them.

[brimacombe]

Thanks again Graham

I'll try and remember to send you a note after you get home!

I'm thousands of miles away from home and my notes, but if I remember correctly the 2nd Gsn Bn, N.F. was a large battalion well over a 1,000 strong. It was originally made of members of the Tyneside Scottish and Irish who were physically unfit for service in France. As time wore on it was filled out with many more men from other units, many of whom were recoving from wounds or sickness.

The decision to send them to India was probably done in good faith as it was probably thought the climate would aid their recovery compared to Garrison duties in Northern Europe. However for men who were already weakened by wounds and sickness India certainly wasn't the place to be and the battalion had a large proportion of men who died as a result.

The Battalion itself wasn't static either and seems to have travelled extensively throughout the region, but this wouldn't be unusual as this sort of thing happend prior to the War with the regular battalions who served there moving from the plains to the hill districts during seasonal training or as the security situation warranted.

Just remembered as I'm typing this that I do have some photo's and a set of notes at home from someone who actually served with the Battalion in India, but it'll be 3weeks before I get a look at them.

[geofffox]

Dear All

I recently discovered that one of my relatives served in India with the 2nd (Garrison) Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. Could someone please tell me where they served in the country and what they did while they were there?

Regards

Geoff

[Chris_Baker]

That is the 2nd Battalion. The 2nd Garrison Battalion served in India.

[pioneecorps]

Hi Chris

"I deleted my last post on this subject"

Only other thing I found was AHMEDNAGER, INDIA.

google search:

"Full Text of Tales of AHMEDNAGER INDIA in Central and Southen India".

By: Captain, Cecil Cowley M.C.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[HERITAGE PLUS]

2nd Garrison Bn. Formed at Newcastle in Oct 1915. Went to India in Feb 1916 and joined the Sialkot Brigade, 2nd (Indian) Division.

Sialkot Brigade.

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. Mar 1916 - Mar 1917. To the 6th Poona divisional area.

1st Garrison Bn Yorkshire Regt. Apr 1917 - 11 Nov 1918.

1st Bn Duke of Wellington’s Regt. Feb 1915 - Jun 1915. To the 1st Division.

1st Bn Duke of Wellington’s Regt. Jul 1915 - Apr 1917. To the 4th Brigade.

24th Bn Rifle Brigade. Apr 1917 - 11 Nov 1918.

Poona Brigade.

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. Mar 1917 - Oct 1917. Remained with the Division but at Ahmednagar.

1st Garrison Bn Norfolk Regt. Mar 1918 - 11 Nov 1918.

2/4th Bn Somerset Light Infantry. Aug 1917 - Sep 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

1/5th Bn Somerset Light Infantry. Mar 1917 - May 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

2/4th Bn Border Regt. Jan 1915 - Nov 1915. To the 5th Division.

1/4th Bn Hampshire Regt. Dec 1914 - Jan 1915. To the 2nd Division.

2/4th Bn Dorsetshire Regt. Jan 1915 - Feb 1915. Remained with the Division but at Ahmednagar.

1/4th Bn Wiltshire Regt. Mar 1917 - Sep 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

2/4th Bn Wiltshire Regt. Dec 1914 - Mar 1917. To the 8th Division.

Attached Troops.

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. Oct 1917 - May 1918. To the Ahmednagar Brigade.

1st Garrison Bn Yorkshire Regt. Jan 1916 - Apr 1917. To the 2nd Division.

2/4th Bn Dorsetshire Regt. Feb 1915 - Jan 1916. To the 3rd Lahore divisional area.

2/4th Bn Dorsetshire Regt. May 1917 - Aug 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

Ahmednagar Brigade. (Formed in May 1918).

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. May 1918 - 11 Nov 1918.

Disbanded in UK 18/1/1920

Source: ttp://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-19219.html

[geofffox]

Hi

Many thanks for the reply to my post. It provides me with enough information to be going on with.

Regards

Geoff

[Chester837]

Can anyone assist with a query re the 2nd (Garrison) Bn Northumberland Fusiliers? Reading the above info, it seems that the Bn were in India up until the Armistice. However, one of the chaps I'm researching is shown as being a member of that Bn but is buried in Basra Cemetery. A little digging shows that between the 1st Nov 1918 & the 11th Nov 1918, there were 2 members of the 2nd (Garrison) Bn were buried in Basra Cemetery. Can anyone explain why they were there? For info, the chap I'm looking at was a regular 2nd Bn Queens Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) who arrived in Mespot from India on the 6th Feb 1915.

[MaureenE]

There is some information on “Alan Greveson's World War I Forum”, page 132

http://www.circlecity.co.uk/wartime/board/index.php?page=132

EDIT: This page number is no longer applicable. Use the link http://www.circlecity.co.uk/wartime/board and the search term 49372

Scroll down to

"Reply from: Alan Greveson

Date: Wednesday 2nd June 2010 at 4:58 PM

Dear Mike,

Men of the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers served in Mesopotamia from March 1917 until 1919. Whether this was the whole battalion, or elements of it, is not clear but the Battalion lost 179 men during the First World War and the majority died from sickness in Mesopotamia. The earliest death in Mesopotamia was on March 4th 1917 and the latest March 21st 1919….However, "Soldiers Died in the Great War" (HMSO, 1921) lists their first death in Mesopotamia on March 4th 1917 at Basra. It seems certain that all or part of the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers arrived in Basra in late February or early March 1917. The deaths in Mesopotamia appeared to be from sickness including one from smallpox… The Garrison Battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers appears to have remained in Mesopotamia until the winter of 1918/1919 as the last recorded death there was on January 4th 1919 at Amara. Amara was further North than Basra and was the headquarters from where the 13th Division started demobilisation in February 1919. The final death in the 2nd Garrison Battalion was recorded in India on March 21 1919. The 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers returned to England and was disbanded on January 8th 1920".

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Keithtug]

2nd Garrison Bn. Formed at Newcastle in Oct 1915. Went to India in Feb 1916 and joined the Sialkot Brigade, 2nd (Indian) Division.

Sialkot Brigade.

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. Mar 1916 - Mar 1917. To the 6th Poona divisional area.

1st Garrison Bn Yorkshire Regt. Apr 1917 - 11 Nov 1918.

1st Bn Duke of Wellingtons Regt. Feb 1915 - Jun 1915. To the 1st Division.

1st Bn Duke of Wellingtons Regt. Jul 1915 - Apr 1917. To the 4th Brigade.

24th Bn Rifle Brigade. Apr 1917 - 11 Nov 1918.

Poona Brigade.

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. Mar 1917 - Oct 1917. Remained with the Division but at Ahmednagar.

1st Garrison Bn Norfolk Regt. Mar 1918 - 11 Nov 1918.

2/4th Bn Somerset Light Infantry. Aug 1917 - Sep 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

1/5th Bn Somerset Light Infantry. Mar 1917 - May 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

2/4th Bn Border Regt. Jan 1915 - Nov 1915. To the 5th Division.

1/4th Bn Hampshire Regt. Dec 1914 - Jan 1915. To the 2nd Division.

2/4th Bn Dorsetshire Regt. Jan 1915 - Feb 1915. Remained with the Division but at Ahmednagar.

1/4th Bn Wiltshire Regt. Mar 1917 - Sep 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

2/4th Bn Wiltshire Regt. Dec 1914 - Mar 1917. To the 8th Division.

Attached Troops.

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. Oct 1917 - May 1918. To the Ahmednagar Brigade.

1st Garrison Bn Yorkshire Regt. Jan 1916 - Apr 1917. To the 2nd Division.

2/4th Bn Dorsetshire Regt. Feb 1915 - Jan 1916. To the 3rd Lahore divisional area.

2/4th Bn Dorsetshire Regt. May 1917 - Aug 1917. To the 75th (British) Division.

Ahmednagar Brigade. (Formed in May 1918).

2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers. May 1918 - 11 Nov 1918.

Disbanded in UK 18/1/1920

Hi,

I know it's a long time since you made this post, but I have discovered that a relation of mine was in the 2nd Garrison Battalion in India, and from your info he was in Ahmednagar when he had an accident and died from a crushed base to his skull on 19 Aug 1917. His name & No. was Robert William CHARGE Private No. 26345. I have the details from CWGC that he is buried at Kirkee Cemetery, but I don't know how he came to have his accident, can you suggest a line of enquiry that I could follow?

Regards,

Keith

[HERITAGE PLUS]

HI Keith

I can only suggest that you see if there is a War Diary for the battalion at Kew and look for any mention of his death in local papers for the area he came from.

Regards

Dave

[Keithtug]

Thanks Dave,

I'll have to see if I can find someone going to Kew to have a look at the War diaries, I'll also see if I can find anything in the local newspapers.

Regards,

Keith

[MaureenE]

Garrison Battalions were formed to perform Garrison duties, so I don't think there would be a War Diary, as they weren't in a War situation.

I think there would have been at least some horses in the regiment, so one possibility is that he died as a result of a fall from a horse. A relative of mine in the Army post WW1 died this way, although not in India.

Another possibility is that he died on a training exercise when the ground gave way, or he fell, or something similar.

I think the political situation was reasonably stable at that time, I would be surprised if he was attacked by an Indian.

Cheers

Maureen

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Maureen and fellow-enthusiasts,

I possess the medal group to William Percival Platt: MBE (Mil) GVR; BWM (Lieut.); IGS Afgh NWF 1919 (Lieut., M. A. Dept.).

W. P. Platt: first commn. as T/2nd Lieut., 12th Bn DLI 22 Sep 1914; 16th Bn DLI, July 1915.

Transferred to 2nd Garrison Bn Northumberland Fusiliers, 11 Oct 1915; T/Lieut., 2 Dec 1915. Local Capt. (in India) 1920.

Relinquished commission 1921.

Attached Military Accounts Department, IA, at Rawalpindi 1916-17; CMA 4th Quetta Divn., 1918-19; Field CMA Lahore 1920-21.

Served 1914-18 War. India 1916-21. MBE (Mil) London Gazette 1 January 1920. (One of only two MBEs to MAD in that list.)

Does anyone have a photo of William Percival Platt? (An accountant, he lived in Blackpool.)

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Kimberley John Lindsay.

[Tony Jones]

Bit of a resurrection on this thread that I've read in relation to my grandfather Henry Major Jones (26729) who was in the 2nd Garrison Battalion 1916 - 1920.  My understanding of the posts above is that all service of the 2nd Garrison Battalion should be in India.  His photo album seems to disprove that, at least as far as he was concerned, as the majority of his photos are of Basra (or Basrah) &  its surroundings.  Some of the titles for his photos are :- 

Basrah

Tanoomah, S Persia

79th Carnatic (Indian) Infantry

Beit Nama Officers Hospital

3rd BGH Pier

9th Indian General Hospital

One photo, that includes him, appears to have men from other regiments judging by the visible badges.  There are a number of local scenes as well.

The only mention of India are the few photos that were taken when "on leave from the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force in August 1919".  I'm happy to scan & post some of these photos (96 in total) if they are of interest.  Note that as they were all developed "in the field" plus they are obviously over 100 years old means there is considerable variation in quality & digitally tweaking them doesn't always work out!

Tony

[MaureenE]

if you look at my post above dated 30 December 2013 , you will see I quoted the wording  "It seems certain that all or part of the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers arrived in Basra in late February or early March 1917. "

It will be very interesting to see any photographs you are able to post.

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Tony Jones said:

Bit of a resurrection on this thread that I've read in relation to my grandfather Henry Major Jones (26729) who was in the 2nd Garrison Battalion 1916 - 1920.  My understanding of the posts above is that all service of the 2nd Garrison Battalion should be in India.  His photo album seems to disprove that, at least as far as he was concerned, as the majority of his photos are of Basra (or Basrah) &  its surroundings.  Some of the titles for his photos are :- 

Basrah

Tanoomah, S Persia

79th Carnatic (Indian) Infantry

Beit Nama Officers Hospital

3rd BGH Pier

9th Indian General Hospital

One photo, that includes him, appears to have men from other regiments judging by the visible badges.  There are a number of local scenes as well.

The only mention of India are the few photos that were taken when "on leave from the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force in August 1919".  I'm happy to scan & post some of these photos (96 in total) if they are of interest.  Note that as they were all developed "in the field" plus they are obviously over 100 years old means there is considerable variation in quality & digitally tweaking them doesn't always work out!

Tony

Do please post them Tony, it is family photos like yours posted in forums like this that have utterly transformed the ability of historians to study many aspects of regimental life that were previously hidden away in the dusty store rooms of museum collections.  I for one will be very pleased to view them and interpret what I can see.

Edited 2 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

16 hours ago, Tony Jones said:

Bit of a resurrection on this thread that I've read in relation to my grandfather Henry Major Jones (26729) who was in the 2nd Garrison Battalion 1916 - 1920.  My understanding of the posts above is that all service of the 2nd Garrison Battalion should be in India.  His photo album seems to disprove that, at least as far as he was concerned, as the majority of his photos are of Basra (or Basrah) &  its surroundings.  Some of the titles for his photos are :- 

It was suggested to you (twice) on this thread, where you previously posted one of the photographs, that you started a separate thread on the Soldier's sub forum.

 Joining old threads and repeating the query causes duplication and confusion.

By all means post your photographs I'm sure members will be delighted to see them but can you please try to manage the posting by creating a dedicated thread. Thank you

[Tony Jones]

Thanks for this supportive comment.  If you had looked I followed the advice & created a specific thread under Soldiers but followed another bit of advice to this thread.  The info that I posted was specific to the data I have on the 2nd Garrison battalion as far as my grandfather's service is concerned.