2nd (Garrison) Btn Northumberland Fusiliers

[MaureenE]

Tony, as the photos you have will illustrate where the regiment was posted, which is not particularly clear to date, it seems very appropriate and most helpful to others to post them in this this topic, and I hope you will go ahead and do so.

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Tony Jones said:

Thanks for this supportive comment.  If you had looked I followed the advice & created a specific thread under Soldiers but followed another bit of advice to this thread.  The info that I posted was specific to the data I have on the 2nd Garrison battalion as far as my grandfather's service is concerned.

Do please post what you have Tony, there are a few of us who will help to interpret what you have and put them in some context.

[charlie962]

23 hours ago, MaureenE said:

It seems certain that all or part of the 2nd Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers arrived in Basra in late February or early March 1917. "

What is also clear is that a number of men serving in other units in Mespot were compulsorily trfd from their original unit to the 2nd GBnNF throughout 1917 and 1918 and were renumbered at that point. From a sample I have looked at it would seem that for sickness and other health reasons they were no longer fit for frontline service but not so unfit that they would be evacuated to India. Thus logical TRF to a Garrison battalion. This would make up the numbers of 2GBNF. I shall post some examples tomorrow.

Charlie

[kenf48]

15 hours ago, MaureenE said:

Tony, as the photos you have will illustrate where the regiment was posted, which is not particularly clear to date, it seems very appropriate and most helpful to others to post them in this this topic, and I hope you will go ahead and do so.

Maureen

Yes., but we now have three threads on the forum concerning this soldier and his photographs.

I can already see duplication of effort. One photograph has been posted on the IWT thread, previously linked.  The question therefore is how best to proceed.

I think it's reasonable, for the administration of the GWF and out of courtesy to those who may wish to help, to suggest that the photographs, which include hospitals, should be managed and merged.

What is clear, from surviving service records, is that on arrival in theatre the men of the 2nd Garrison Battalion NF were dispersed to various postings.  These included attachments to the RE, including workshops and signals; to GHQ and postings in Basra, Amara and Baghdad. See:

 

In much the same way as on the Western Front took men from the Home Army for LOC, or third echelon postings it seems possible men were posted from Garrison Battalions in India to similar duties in a theatre of war.  

It may be the Headquarters and other staff of the 2nd Battalion NF remained in India, hence no war diary. What is difficult to understand is why these men were posted from other Garrison Battalions to the NF immediately prior to deployment to Mesopatamia and what was the process applied, were they volunteers tired of routine 'pre-war' garrison duties in India? Was this an administrative tool to enable the postings? The records are not clear.

[charlie962]

I suggest that the move to Mespot of Garrison personnel was as a result of Maude's successful push to Baghdad and beyond. It looks as though 2GBNF became the administrative unit for all these men but on a day to day basis the men reported locally.

Since it was I who suggested to Tony that he start his own thread I feel slightly responsible for the confusion. I will post on this thread general observations on 2GB and on Tony's own thread anything specific to his gf. That may mean I duplicate but I suggest it is worth building on this old 2GB thread? It is an interesting subject.

Charlie

 

 

[charlie962]

A snippet here in an AQMG LofC Diary that I am reading through:

25/2/17  India asked to send garrison units to escort prisoners to India owing to scarcity here.

Large numbers of prisoners were coming through as Maude advanced.

Haven't found specific ref to 2GB NF yet nor any idea of reporting lines.

Charlie

[MaureenE]

10 hours ago, kenf48 said:

In much the same way as on the Western Front took men from the Home Army for LOC, or third echelon postings it seems possible men were posted from Garrison Battalions in India to similar duties in a theatre of war.  

It may be the Headquarters and other staff of the 2nd Battalion NF remained in India, hence no war diary. What is difficult to understand is why these men were posted from other Garrison Battalions to the NF immediately prior to deployment to Mesopatamia and what was the process applied, were they volunteers tired of routine 'pre-war' garrison duties in India? Was this an administrative tool to enable the postings? The records are not clear.

It is my understanding that there are NO War Diaries for Garrison Battalions because Garrison Battalions consisted of men who were unfit for front line service, and as such these Battalions were never considered to be in a War situation. 

The situation generally with Territorial Force regiments in India, was that there was a great deal of movement of troops in and out of the regiments. Men would come into the regiments from Britain,  and move out of the regiments to specialist roles within India, or be sent to Mesopotamia. The Garrison Battalions are a subset of the TF, they could also receive men unfit for frontline duty  from  other regiments about to move out of India. I also suspect that changing medical classifications may have had some effect for men within Garrison Battalions, either general medical classification rules changed as the war progressed, or different medical officers has different ideas, or men's health improved as they recovered from their illnesses/wounds. 

With regards to Battalions being sent to Mesopotamia,  generally it appears that a specific number (minimum) was designated to be sent. If there weren't enough within the Battalion,  I get the impression volunteers were called for to make up numbers from other Battalions/Regiments, and if there still were't enough  presumably some were told they had to go. I think the same rationale would apply to a Garrison Battalion being sent to Mesopotamia.

I think both within in India, and  perhaps more so  in Mesopotamia, a Garrison Battalion would be regarded as a "pool"  to fill  specialist/clerical roles.

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, MaureenE said:

It is my understanding that there are NO War Diaries for Garrison Battalions because Garrison Battalions consisted of men who were unfit for front line service, and as such these Battalions were never considered to be in a War situation. 

The situation generally with Territorial Force regiments in India, was that there was a great deal of movement of troops in and out of the regiments. Men would come into the regiments from Britain,  and move out of the regiments to specialist roles within India, or be sent to Mesopotamia. The Garrison Battalions are a subset of the TF, they could also receive men unfit for frontline duty  from  other regiments about to move out of India. I also suspect that changing medical classifications may have had some effect for men within Garrison Battalions, either general medical classification rules changed as the war progressed, or different medical officers has different ideas, or men's health improved as they recovered from their illnesses/wounds. 

With regards to Battalions being sent to Mesopotamia,  generally it appears that a specific number (minimum) was designated to be sent. If there weren't enough within the Battalion,  I get the impression volunteers were called for to make up numbers from other Battalions/Regiments, and if there still were't enough  presumably some were told they had to go. I think the same rationale would apply to a Garrison Battalion being sent to Mesopotamia.

I think both within in India, and  perhaps more so  in Mesopotamia, a Garrison Battalion would be regarded as a "pool"  to fill  specialist/clerical roles.

Maureen

I agree with your interpretation and do hope that @Tony Joneswill return and post as many as possible of what are likely to be quite rarely seen and revealing photos.

Edited 5 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, MaureenE said:

t is my understanding that there are NO War Diaries for Garrison Battalions because Garrison Battalions consisted of men who were unfit for front line service, and as such these Battalions were never considered to be in a War situation. 

The keeping of war diaries was governed by Field Service Regulations (Part II Organisation and Administration) 1909, as amended, the regulation states:-

"2. A war diary will be kept in duplicate(by means of carbon paper) from the first day of mobilisation or creation of the particular command or appointment, by:-

Each branch of the staff at headquarters and at the headquarters of an army, and of all subordinate commands, including garrisons and posts."

The regulations go on to list the other units required to maintain a diary.

Garrison Battalions deployed to France complied with this Regulation, just one example is the 4th (Garrison) Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers.  

Garrison Battalions in India, and other outposts of Empire, did not keep a 'war diary' as they were  not, with limited exceptions, in a theatre of war.  

Had the 2nd (Garrison Battalion) Northumberland Fusiliers been deployed from India to Mesopotamia as a unit they would be obliged under the above Field Regulations to keep a diary, as did many other non combatant units did whilst so engaged.  Browsing the diaries these include Sanitary Sections; remounts; hospitals and other 'Base and Defence' troops as well as Army Troops.

On 3rd July 1916 a specific instruction was issued by the AG (3rd Echelon) in Mesopotamia that certain units, mainly the Supply and Transport Corps and ASC units need no longer submit diaries, though the Director S & T and other higher level units were obliged to do so. There was no mention of of Garrison Battalions but that may be because a return at the end of October 1916 noted by AG (3rd Echelon) that "no tunnelling companies or British Labour or Garrison units were employed by 'this force".  This telegram was not repeated, and it is appreciated it predates the supposed deployment of the 2nd GBNF but on the other hand no Garrison Battalions are listed in the monthly returns submitted BY AG (3rd Echelon) through to 1918.

A final point Garrison Battalions were not a 'subset to the TF' but raised entirely separately from men in fitness Category 'B' of the New Armies for the purpose of relieving TF Units who had been posted to garrison duties overseas. 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The keeping of war diaries was governed by Field Service Regulations (Part II Organisation and Administration) 1909, as amended, the regulation states:-

"2. A war diary will be kept in duplicate(by means of carbon paper) from the first day of mobilisation or creation of the particular command or appointment, by:-

Each branch of the staff at headquarters and at the headquarters of an army, and of all subordinate commands, including garrisons and posts."

The regulations go on to list the other units required to maintain a diary.

Garrison Battalions deployed to France complied with this Regulation, just one example is the 4th (Garrison) Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers.  

Garrison Battalions in India, and other outposts of Empire, did not keep a 'war diary' as they were  not, with limited exceptions, in a theatre of war.  

Had the 2nd (Garrison Battalion) Northumberland Fusiliers been deployed from India to Mesopotamia as a unit they would be obliged under the above Field Regulations to keep a diary, as did many other non combatant units did whilst so engaged.  Browsing the diaries these include Sanitary Sections; remounts; hospitals and other 'Base and Defence' troops as well as Army Troops.

On 3rd July 1916 a specific instruction was issued by the AG (3rd Echelon) in Mesopotamia that certain units, mainly the Supply and Transport Corps and ASC units need no longer submit diaries, though the Director S & T and other higher level units were obliged to do so. There was no mention of of Garrison Battalions but that may be because a return at the end of October 1916 noted by AG (3rd Echelon) that "no tunnelling companies or British Labour or Garrison units were employed by 'this force".  This telegram was not repeated, and it is appreciated it predates the supposed deployment of the 2nd GBNF but on the other hand no Garrison Battalions are listed in the monthly returns submitted BY AG (3rd Echelon) through to 1918.

A final point Garrison Battalions were not a 'subset to the TF' but raised entirely separately from men in fitness Category 'B' of the New Armies for the purpose of relieving TF Units who had been posted to garrison duties overseas. 

Thank you for that very interesting rundown Ken.  The operational theatre stipulation for keeping a war diary makes entirely logical sense (and still stands), but I was most interested to learn of the specific exceptions ordered, albeit that such modifications do tend to happen as part of the routine of war, as I know you’ll be well aware.  The explanation in your final paragraph is also a logical course of events as the TF units posted to overseas garrisons would inevitably have required backfilling if the role that they’d previously undertaken was to be maintained.  They were in effect carrying out the role that had previously been specifically earmarked for TF soldiers, but with men of an inferior medical and fitness category.

Edited 5 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

On 04/01/2022 at 17:37, charlie962 said:

A snippet here in an AQMG LofC Diary that I am reading through:

25/2/17  India asked to send garrison units to escort prisoners to India owing to scarcity here.

Large numbers of prisoners were coming through as Maude advanced.

Haven't found specific ref to 2GB NF yet nor any idea of reporting lines.

Charlie

From the AG (3rd Echelon) diary 31st December 1916

The majority of the  400 'B' men would have come from Garrison Battalions.  Having searched the above diary from 1916

to the end of 1917 (the diary has been well cut up by TNA) I can find no reference to 2GBNF.

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I was most interested to learn of the specific exceptions ordered, albeit that such modifications do tend to happen as part of the routine of war,

Slightly off topic but fyi - it may help those searching for ASC diaries in this campaign!

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

From the AG (3rd Echelon) diary 31st December 1916

The majority of the  400 'B' men would have come from Garrison Battalions.  Having searched the above diary from 1916

to the end of 1917 (the diary has been well cut up by TNA) I can find no reference to 2GBNF.

Slightly off topic but fyi - it may help those searching for ASC diaries in this campaign!

Thank you Ken, I entirely agree that such missives are both, important and interesting, if one is to understand the functioning of units operating in the field and how their routines can change.

Edited 5 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Tony Jones]

Right I'm posting these here as although they are my grandfather's photos (Henry Major Jones) they relate to what he saw when in Mesopotamia in the 2nd Garr. Batt.

The photos are all titled in the album :-

Prisoners1 - Turkish Prisoners en route to Base escorted by Indian Infantry

Prisioners2 - Turkish Prisoners in Concentration camp going through Fumigation

Troopship - Troopship transferring Indian troops to the NW Frontier

Music Group - Music hath charms to sooth the savage breast.  (My gfather on the right).

Edited 5 January , 2022 by Tony Jones

[charlie962]

40 minutes ago, Tony Jones said:

they relate to what he saw when in Mesopotamia in the 2nd Garr. Batt.

Excellent. Many thanks for sharing. Any idea of dates? Do you think the album is in date order? ie numbering might give clue to oldest/newest.

I wonder if the photos of PoWs implicates him in a pow camp role?

Charlie

Troopship probably at Basra.

Edited 5 January , 2022 by charlie962

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Just for the record (and not at all wanting to add to the confusion), in the years following my modest contribution regarding one of the 2GB Northumberland Fusiliers officers, Lieut W. P. Platt, a kind relative beamed me a 1930s image of him. 

I attach this, his medals, and the April 1921 Indian Army entry showing how Platt was employed, away from 2nd G.B., namely as Field Cashier Military Accounts, Lahore. His MBE (Mil) was one of two awarded to the Military Accounts Department (M. A. D.), for the brief Third Afghan campaign.

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

Edited 6 January , 2022 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

Just for the record (and not at all wanting to add to the confusion), in the years following my modest contribution regarding one of the 2GB Northumberland Fusiliers officers, Lieut W. P. Platt, a kind relative beamed me a 1930s image of him. 

I attach this, his medals, and the April 1921 Indian Army entry showing how Platt was employed, away from 2nd G.B., namely as Field Commander Military Accounts, Lahore. His MBE (Mil) was one of two awarded to the Military Accounts Department (M. A. D.), for the brief Third Afghan campaign.

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

Kim, just for reference it’s field ‘cashier’ rather than commander.  Cashier was/is the Army term for a staff officer responsible for dealing with cash accounts.  He was the point of contact for unit paymasters.

[Tony Jones]

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Excellent. Many thanks for sharing. Any idea of dates? Do you think the album is in date order? ie numbering might give clue to oldest/newest.

I wonder if the photos of PoWs implicates him in a pow camp role?

Charlie

Troopship probably at Basra.

Charlie

The album inside cover has an inscription "Views and Portraits taken in India and Mesopotamia during 1916 - 1920.  Apart from that and the note that a few were taken in August 1918 when he was on leave "Above the Clouds" in Darjeeling there is nothing to date any of the photos.  Holiday snaps are the wrong description for many of the photos but that's almost the feel of the book.  I'll expand on this on this on the post under his name as I don't want to be chastised for thread drift.

Tony

[Tony Jones]

Charlie

Apologies - there are 2 photos with a date but whether it's significant is unlikely - the wording is "First Basra Horse Racing 1917".  The 2 faded photos under it are "Going up to Start" & "Race for Arab Sheiks".

Here's 4 more scanned images with their titles :-

Beit Nama - Beit Nama Officer's Hospital

Burial - Burial of a British Officer

Cemetery - Corner of the Hakemiyak Cemetery, Makina

Runners - Orderly Room Runners of 79th Carnatic (Indian) Infty.

 

Tony

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Tony Jones said:

whether it's significant is unlikely

All dates help. Great photos. The 79th Carnatics were on garrison duties around Basra until Dec 1918 when they moved to Kut having been relieved by 1/8th Rajputs. Amongst their many duties they provided men to help guard the Turkish PoWs at Basra camp. They had no British other ranks on their books. There is a helpful list of duties that they were to take over on arrival in Mespot cOct 1916, in their war diary. I shall post an extract for illustration of Garrison duties because I think that 2GBNF men would be doing similar work on an individual complimentary basis. Of course the 2GBNF men would be filling a variety of other clerical and supervisory roles.

So all these photos are Basra base around 1917/1918.

Tony, can I suggest you give each photo a sequence number that follows it's position in the album?

Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

[Tony Jones]

As I said on the other thread the album is quite "touristy" so the photo order isn't likely to reflect the order they were taken but may be similar grouped together eg Page 1 has 4 market scenes in Basrah, Page 4 main title is "Types of Lower Mesopotamian Arabs", Page 9 title is "Indian Gymkhana" & some single photos eg "Native Hairdressers" .

I've noted the numbers as requested so make of that what you can.  I did do the more interesting/better quality photos hence the jumping around

Prisoners1 - 47

Prisioners2 - 48

Troopship - 28

Music Group - 84 

Beit Nama - 23

Burial - 43

Cemetery 44- 

Runners - 18

He took a few of himself & others like the "Music Group" photo so had either a timer or an accomplice for those.  I'll scan these ones that have army personnel in them next.

Tony

[kenf48]

Out of interest came across this complete ORBAT for the Mesopotamia. Exp. Force. (it appears to have been issued fortnightly) 

This one from September 1917 has no mention of any British Garrison Battalion which would support the hypothesis that individual soldiers were posted, probably to GHQ 3rd Echelon for various duties.

(duplication around Euphrates defences due to size and split in original)

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Out of interest came across this complete ORBAT for the Mesopotamia. Exp. Force. (it appears to have been issued fortnightly) 

This one from September 1917 has no mention of any British Garrison Battalion which would support the hypothesis that individual soldiers were posted, probably to GHQ 3rd Echelon for various duties.

(duplication around Euphrates defences due to size and split in original)

What a cracking document to stumble upon.  It does seem to confirm the absence of an organic Garrison Battalion.

NB.  I can’t help but compare this ORBAT with what the British Government thought was ‘sufficient’ (read affordable) to reconstruct post 2nd Gulf War Iraq…

Edited 7 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Out of interest came across this complete ORBAT for the Mesopotamia. Exp. Force. (it appears to have been issued fortnightly) 

An excellent source. I'd not taken advantage of this before.

Of equal interest generally, and for understanding where men might be allocated, this is the Ration Strength for the same date. TOTAL 344,529 including 120,000 Followers.

with thanks to National Archives

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

An excellent source. I'd not taken advantage of this before.

Of equal interest generally, and for understanding where men might be allocated, this is the Ration Strength for the same date. TOTAL 344,529 including 120,000 Followers.

with thanks to National Archives

Compare that with current strength of entire army!