WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO

[wizzywadey]

New Labour stopped teaching our kids about our proud imperial past and both world wars. My own son spent more time studying the Holocaust than our own history. The situation has become MUCH WORSE in the last 10 years or so. I speak from direct experience. Get Real - The criminals that did this are hardly likely to be youngsters or pensioners, they are on the balance of probability grown men aged between 18 and 45 with a long criminal history (CRO) and quite likely from a traveller background (IC9's).

I concur and fear that before long those memorials will no longer be there like The Royal Tournament which has been stopped and Remembrance Sunday that they would like stopped as it's deemed too British!

This country is rotting from within and they won't see it or do anything about it...till it's too late

Birch slap the politicians & magistrates!

[bts1970]

Each time i have returned from Afghanistan (3 times this year alone) i have nothing but disgust as to the attitude that this country has towards Past & present service for this nation.

My ideas on how to solve this are against the common law of this land, the land i am expected to defend against all internal & external persons who intend to cause harm & distress.

I don`t honestly know what the answer to this will be.

Bob

[Neil Clark]

Bob,

You're ALL doing a fine fine job - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=puPQRaVMP88&...feature=related

Thank you.

Neil

(My son T.A - 3 PWRR)

[hillgorilla]

New Labour stopped teaching our kids about our proud imperial past and both world wars. My own son spent more time studying the flippin Holocaust than our own history. The situation has become MUCH WORSE in the last 10 years or so. I speak from direct experience. Get Real - The criminals that did this are hardly likely to be youngsters or pensioners, they are on the balance of probability grown men aged between 18 and 45 with a long criminal history (CRO) and quite likely from a traveller background (IC9's). No good merely shaming them either - they have none!

The Holocaust is part of own history, there are still survivors living in our country, be they Jewish or enforced workers from the occupied countries such as Poles or Ukranians. They have been part of our country for the last 60 years. Indeed British Units liberated some of the concentration camps. the Holocaust needs to be remembered along with the two World Wars and the days of the Empire, it could be said that they are all inter linked, and to study our history that you need to be ware of them all. Travellers are also part of our history and culture, yes there may be criminals amongst their communities, but there are also criminals in all aspects of our communities.

Getting real is very easy, having lived near a drugs den I am now very aware that the 'users' and 'wasters' of our society are from all parts of our society, from the 'respectable middle aged person' to the OAP and then the teenager. As a hard worked member of the NHS, who has this year been a victim of violent crime I am more than aware of the realities of life.

What matters here is the rememberance of the men on the memorial. The act of desecration is unforgivable, especially at this time of year. The men who were named were part of a generation that went to serve their country, and who should be remembered.

[stevew]

Get Real - The criminals that did this are hardly likely to be youngsters or pensioners, they are on the balance of probability grown men aged between 18 and 45 with a long criminal history (CRO) and quite likely from a traveller background (IC9's). No good merely shaming them either - they have none!

I agree Neil - these people don't distinguish between a war memorial, church roof, or a man hole cover

[John_Hartley]

As yet, no news of recovery of the plaques. A local online news service notes that a recent conviction for stealing brass plaques, from Dukinfield Crem. got the criminal (a heroin addict) 12 months, which seems about right to me.

John

[ppc1919]

The 'person' who stole the brass plaques from Dukinfield was caught in August 2007, sentenced to 12 months in December 2007 and walked free in February 2008. Reports state that he served half of his sentence, which would have been the case if he was remanded when arrested.

The value of the plaques was reported as £146,500. 430 plaques were taken but only 170 were traced. The 170 were probably the ones that he sold to the scrap dealer for £77. They accepted them but put them to one side because they were suspicious. The Police got a tip-off that they were at the scrapyard.

Not much of a deterrent to any of the parties involved.

[rugby-137]

I`m with Bruce bring back hanging

[John_Hartley]

Not much of a deterrent to any of the parties involved.

Oooo, I dunno. The thought of six months in HMP Manchester would certainly deter me. I was sh it-scared just going round the place on a day's "works visit".

But then I'm not a heroin addict.

How long do you reckon he should have got to act as a deterrent to him from committing more crimes?

[Guest geoff501]

How long do you reckon he should have got to act as a deterrent to him from committing more crimes?

Dunno. What's he done with himself in the last 8 months?

[ppc1919]

Not having been privy to the same experience as you John, I will take your word for it that it isn't a nice place to be. But, the thought of even being on the wrong side of the law when growing up was enough to deter me (and that includes staying away from drugs).

Maybe I am being naive and I am sure you will tell me the reason why, but why is someone who is given a one year sentence out after only six months? Is it for good behaviour? The sentence handed down should mean exactly that and extra time should be ADDED for bad behaviour. After all, isn't bad behaviour the determinate cause of the sentencing anyway? I really don't understand dangling a carrot for 'good behaviour'.

[John_Hartley]

I am sure you will tell me the reason why, but why is someone who is given a one year sentence out after only six months?

It's now some years since I retired from working in the criminal justice system so the law may have changed in recent years.

But, as I recall, the law says someone would serve half their sentence in prison and then be released under the supervision of the probation service for the remainder (subject to be being sent back to prison if they didnt comply with orders given by their probation officer). It's something that's been around for years. But, as I say, things may have changed now - the current government takes a much harder line towards offending than its predecessors.

[ppc1919]

Ok, thank you for the explanation, but I will now have to stand by my original comment that it isn't much of a deterrent.

For anyone who had a mind to do the same sort of act, they would be able to weigh up their own tariff (and if they can weigh up how much in monetary value they can get from their haul, they can weigh up the sentence, even in a drug induced state) and decide whether it was worth doing the time, compared to the gain if they got away with it.

Six months is not long enough. I would say at least a couple of years and I do mean serving a couple of years and not half time.

[Neil Clark]

This is the REALITY of UK prisons (New Labour Style) -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-56...hy-prisons.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1667945.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-...tvs-618901.html

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...ents/article.do

I could go on.....

FACT - Our brave boys in Iraq and Afganistan get less money to pay for food each day than UK prisoners!

I can assure you all that the vast majority of hardened criminals today consider Prison as mere rest and recreation! Most prisoners get better fed and looked after here than on the outside! In the USA their prisoners serve a full sentence and any bad behavior results in added time.

John,

There is no point in sending criminals to a place they don't fear. Although you are right in saying that judges use the prison sanction more readily now than during the last government, the places have become holiday camps under New Labour direction. Chery's Human Rights Act has done more damage than most people realise.

Personally I would use prison and bankruptcy together to punish these criminals - send them to a place they don't want to EVER return to and then take every single worldly possession off them (and if needs be their families too) and make them start again. Repeated crimes would result in longer prison sentences in HELL. If you made them awful places to be then you wouldn't need to lock em up so long in the first instance (saving money).

[keggy65]

I quite like the idea (can't find the link at the moment) of some US prisoners having to wear pink outfits and live in tents, whatever the weather, instead of nice, cosy, warm cells!!!

I also can never understand why, if the sentence is 2 years or whatever, why prisoners get any time off - if the offence was worth a 2 year sentence then that's what they should serve. (If it takes more prisons to be built, so be it.)

Maybe I'm just a grumpy old pensioner!!!

Mabel

Edit: Ralph, I'm not making light of your post/s - I just feel helpless in the face of such terrible acts.

[keggy65]

From Wilkpedia:

Tent City

Arpaio set up a "Tent City" as an extension of the Maricopa County Jail (33°25′40″N 112°07′26″W / 33.42778, -112.12389 (Maricopa County Jail)). Many prisons and jails throughout the United States have used, and continue to use, tents to house inmates.[16] Tent City is located in a yard next to a more permanent structure containing toilets, showers, an area for meals, and a day room.[17] It has become notable particularly because of Phoenix's extreme temperatures. Daytime temperatures inside the tents have been reported as high as 150 degrees in the top bunks.[18] During the summer, fans and water are supplied in the tents.[19]

When Arpaio took office, inmates were routinely being released early due to overcrowding. Arpaio believed that "courts, not head count" should determine when an inmate is released, and that no officer should be deterred from making an arrest for fear that the inmate would be released due to jail overcrowding.

However, a new jail would have cost Maricopa County taxpayers around US$70 million. So instead, Arpaio obtained surplus tents from the military, and established Tent City in a yard adjacent to one of the jail facilities. As an announcement to future inmates that they should not expect early release upon overcrowding, but more tents instead, Arpaio added a (pink neon) "Vacancy" sign to the outside of Tent City. The original sign was destroyed in an inmate riot, but was quickly replaced. A second Tent City was opened in 1996 adjacent to another jail facility, and houses female inmates.

According to former Sheriff's Office employees, Arpaio emptied an entire floor of one jail to help fill the tent city when it was opened. [20]

During the summer of 2003, when outside temperatures exceeded 110 °F (43 °C), which is higher than average, Arpaio said to complaining inmates, "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and the soldiers are living in tents and they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your mouths."[21] Inmates were given permission to wear only their pink underwear.

Tent City has been criticized by groups contending these are violations of human and constitutional rights, as well as by Erwin James, a journalist for The Guardian currently on parole from a life sentence in Britain,[22] but has been simultaneously praised by those favoring Arpaio's "get tough on crime" approach[who?].

In response to requests, the Sheriff's office offers group tours of Tent City. In addition, Arpaio has instituted SMART (Shocking Mainstream Adolescents into Resisting Temptation) tents, a voluntary program for middle-school students who are bussed to an area adjacent to Tent City and, for the next 24 hours, shown the reality of jail life.

[gittings]

I think the original thread was great because it highlighted a despicable act and I truly hope that the memorial is restored.

I thought this was the great war forum this thread has turned into a political soap box and vent you spleen at whomever you dont like or dont agree with.

I will be wearing my poppy with pride and visiting France in 2018 to honour the grave of a relative I never knew but am proud to say he part of my family

I will teach my grand children if my son ever has any about wa rthe good and the bad. My father served during the 2nd World War and very rarely spoke about it. I know he bombed Drersden and many people were killed he was doing a job without question because that was the way it was.

When we did find things out it was dropped out very rarely He was a hero in my eyes quiet unassuming my parents set an example to me that there were good and bad in all people and to respect. I shall not return to this thread again.

[stiletto_33853]

Agreed Jane,

The theft of these panels is a bloody disgrace, however can we please keep this on topic, i.e. regarding the theft of panels from a WW1 war memorial and drop the politics. I know what I would like to do to people that commit these types of crime but do not get on a soap box and preach to all and sundry, please follow these guidelines.

Andy

[keggy65]

I'm truly sorry if my post/s offended anyone. All I can offer in the way of an excuse is sheer frustration at the vandalism to this and so many other fine memorials.

Mabel

[Neil Clark]

Yes you're right this isn't a political forum but politics DO come into the equation. The reason why it's slipped into this kind of discussion is that we all feel so strongly about this terrible damage to the monuments we care about and love so much. Some of us clearly have more of a vested interest than most others. It's easy to control your emotions if you haven't dedicated a HUGE part of your life to the protection of civic war memorials. There is not much else we can do other than discuss and condemn what has happened is there? It's our way of coping with the situation.

Frankly, if you don't want to discuss it then go elsewhere or don't post the thread in the first place. It's bound to get us all worked up so don't be so surprised. There are many threads like this one all over the forum.

Thats my final word on the subject.

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Neil,

It does get to me, and I do get extremely annoyed at some of these issues. Not meant in anyway to have a go but this was going nowhere and needs to be kept on topic. Yes there are threads all over the forum not discussing WW1, sorry, can't get to them all but will try to, By the way no disagreement.

Mabel,

No offence taken whatsoever, but as rightly pointed out, WW1 forum so please lets keep it that way.

Andy

[ppc1919]

An apology would be insincere so I can't make one in this instance, although I am always willing to be corrected if I am in the wrong.

Jane, my father also served throughout WW2. He was in the BEF at the start of the war and was in France within days. He came out of Dunkerque three weeks after the main evacuation. He saw many things, but like your father, never spoke of them. My brother managed to find out some things just before my father died in the 70s. When he died, the doctors told us that he still had shrapnel in his leg, presumably from when he was trapped on the beach at Dunkerque.

My grandfather served in WW1 and his brother and a few other of my great uncles were killed. My grandmother served her country too. They all did so, I believe, in order to preserve our freedom and it was their way of speaking out against injustice. I also believe that they passed that freedom on to me and you. I believe that we were discussing something relevant to the theft of the memorials. There were many opinions expressed and rightly so.

Freedom of speech was fought for. It would be meaningless to look at a thread and all have to write 'ditto'.

[SiegeGunner]

Jane, my father also served throughout WW2. He was in the BEF at the start of the war and was in France within days. He came out of Dunkerque three weeks after the main evacuation.

This is intriguing. I've just finished reading Sebag-Montefiore's "Dunkirk - Fight to the Last Man" and don't recall anything about men escaping via Dunkirk so long after the close of 'Dynamo'. Please tell us more.

[ppc1919]

There were many left behind. I am not sure if my father was injured at this time, but he was somewhere on the beach. He watched one of the ships take a direct hit down the funnel. Would have to get the details from my brother. Have just checked the date he returned to the UK and it was on the 22nd June, 1940.

[elle72]

Not all hope is lost.......

A few months ago my family and I were picnicking at Kings Park in Perth WA next to the War Memorial. Before we left I took my four boys to see the name of my great uncle on the WWI plaques and explained to them that he had been killed in the war when he was just a young man (he is very dear to me) . My boys are 4, 3, 18 months and 9 months.

Last weekend the weather was lovely so we took the family out to Kings Park again. My four year old immediately recognised where we were and said 'can we go and visit the man again mum'. I said 'what man?' and he said to me, 'the man with his name on the wall'.....

In the end, it comes down to us. Here in Australia they have only just decided to start teaching Australian history as a core subject in school again! We can't rely on the education system to teach our children about the war or to impart what the sacrifices of those young men really meant to their families. Its up to us to teach our children and grandchildren (and anyone else we can convince to listen LOL)

I feel relieved that my great uncle's memory will live on in the hearts of my children, but then again, I made the effort to make sure they knew who he was.

Cheers,

Elle