centurion Posted 9 December , 2008 Share Posted 9 December , 2008 I had wondered if the IX 46 was a bible quote, however Mark IX 46 is essentially about people who harm children burning in hell whilst Luke IX 46 is an enjoinder to the disciples to adopt the innocence of a small child - neither of which would appear to be relevant in the circumstances. (There is no Matthew or John IX 46) I am still taken by the fact that the notice on the grave is neatly stenciled which could mean that it is a grave number possibly placed there by a graves registration unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hansen Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 It's not OT either. There's only one OT book that has Ch. 9 v. 46 (Judges). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 10 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Thanks for the further speculations. If anyone would like to see higher res versions of the pictures, please contact me. The e-mail option is probably better than the PM one from my profile as my inbox is getting full! After further discussions with my colleague at work we're pretty convinced that the photos were taken by someone else and then sent to Driver Key as momentoes. Some of the captions are of the 'remember this?' variety. Key is therefore probably in several of the photos himself (maybe even the bloke with the stick in the tank photo). We're going to try and pick him out from a post-war civilian photograph that my friend has. Does anyone know anything about grave reference numbers? It certainly doesn't seem to conform to a normal Great War map reference. Is it possible for someone to post a copy of the photograph of the same tank in Russia for comparison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Are there any names visible on the crosses in the high-res copy? I suspect centurion is right, can't see a grave being so carefully prepared without an appropriate identification. Perhaps CWGC can help with the original graves registration numbers, but getting data from them may be difficult. Perhaps our man inside TD can help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks3 Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Mark, Yes I would like higher resolution copies of the photos if possible. Can I PM you with my email address or can you PM me with yours? Thanks Tanks3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
british tommy Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Can i just drop my pennys worth in. I have looked up and down the line for a town/village with a name anything like Requicourt and the one that sticks out is Réchicourt, the problem with this place is its location is south near Metz, Lorraine region. Its not possible they were American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eirridia Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 The grave is very neat and tidy. The rope boundary extends off to the sides, suggesting that there are further plots alongside. The number IX 46 17 may well be a Graves Registration Unit reference, which may have been on pre-printed plaques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Can i just drop my pennys worth in. I have looked up and down the line for a town/village with a name anything like Requicourt and the one that sticks out is Réchicourt, the problem with this place is its location is south near Metz, Lorraine region. Its not possible they were American? The only American unit to operate Mk V tanks were the 301st who were effectively 'embedded' in the British tank forces. and would not have operated there. If the tank did belong to the Americans this would explain the lack of a call or crew number as they do not appear to have used them to any extent, if at all. However they did use a number in a black square on the front horns and this is not evident. Moreover the Americans took their surviving Mk Vs home with them in 1919 and this tank went to Russia. The American tanks did take part in the attacks on the Catelat - Bony line. One of the objectives taken was Ramicourt which was attacked by a force of infantry supported by 20 tanks on the 3rd October 1918. However I can find no information as to which unit(s) these tanks belonged to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Looking at a panoramic view of the Ramicourt cemetery the terrain looks remarkably similar to that in the photos. Moreover the cemetery was started almost immediately after the action. I suspect we may be looking at the start of the cemetery which would explain the neat roped off grave with other roped off sections alongside. Whether the grave contains casualties from the tank must remain a moot point. However if the identification of the cemetery is correct it may be possible to determine this - it is a very small cemetery and only contains 10 unknowns. If that marker is a graves registration reference this may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Further to the above, of the 108 burials at Ramicourt only one is identified as tank corps this being ANDERSON W United Kingdom Private Tank Corps 5th Bn. Date of Death: 03/10/1918 Service No: 305173 B.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 DEFINITELY Ramicourt. The IX 46 refers to 9th Army 46th Division which carried out the taking of Ramicourt on Oct 3rd 1918. So not the tank crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 10 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Marvellous. My colleague is 'gobsmacked' by all this. Once again the amazing GWF does its stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks3 Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Centurion, Nice work but what does the 17 stand for? The attack was in 1918. Tanks3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 I think I can go a little further with the tank. Of the 20 tanks involved 19 were knocked out in the outskirts of Ramicourt itself The remaining tank carried on with the infantry and between Ramicourt and Montbrehain attacked a machine gun nest containing sixteen guns, killing all their crews but becoming disabled itself. This must be the tank in the photo. (Source: Breaking the Hindenburg Line, the story of the 46th Midland Division - Major R E Priestly MC) Ramicourt was an interesting affair. The infantry approached and assembled for the assault under cover of darkness, there was no preliminary bombardment and the tanks dealt with the wire. The main attack was with the bayonet and complete initial surprise was achieved. Over a quarter of the wounds treated on German PoWs were for bayonet stabs. Allied casualties were relatively light. There seems to have been only one fatality amongst the tank crews. Centurion, Nice work but what does the 17 stand for? The attack was in 1918. Tanks3 Who knows - grave 17 perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Hi, This is indeed a fascinating thread! Three small questions, firstly what would the soldier in the first picture be 'poking' around for? Secondly, are the posts around the grave side six pounders, which were standard issue on such tanks? Thirdly, did not tank crews wear brodies with chainmail veils? Just an aside, but judging by the shadows in those pictures, it would seem they were taken at about the same time. Regards Brimstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 10 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Here are a couple more photos from the series. Firstly investigating the wreckage of an aircraft. No detailed caption for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 10 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Here is a higher res version of the 'grave' picture. I have put a better version of the tank picture on the original post. No inscriptions on the crosses. Our RASC chums 'at Wormhout' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eirridia Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 I think I can go a little further with the tank. Of the 20 tanks involved 19 were knocked out in the outskirts of Ramicourt itself The remaining tank carried on with the infantry and between Ramicourt and Montbrehain attacked a machine gun nest containing sixteen guns, killing all their crews but becoming disabled itself. This must be the tank in the photo. However, if the graves remained in place and the site later became the Ramicourt British cemetery, then the tank would have been one of the 19 knocked out. The cemetery is to the south of Ramicourt village, whereas Montbrehain is, sort of, ENE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 10 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2008 A post-war picture of James Key. We're pretty sure that he appears in some of the photos; for example he seems to be the bloke poking around in the wreckage of the 'plane (and probably the fellow outside the tank as well!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eirridia Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 And now I can see that those ropes to the side are just 'stays'. No other graves either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Hi, This is indeed a fascinating thread! Three small questions, firstly what would the soldier in the first picture be 'poking' around for? Secondly, are the posts around the grave side six pounders, which were standard issue on such tanks? Thirdly, did not tank crews wear brodies with chainmail veils? Just an aside, but judging by the shadows in those pictures, it would seem they were taken at about the same time. 1. Souvenirs? 2. No just posts. Male tanks carried six pounders. As the rest of the tanks at Ramicourt were knocked out in the village outskirts (and the one in the photo still has its six pounders) it would be strange if their guns were dismounted and carried off to act as posts in the cemetery. Certainly far too scarce/expensive to be used in this manner and they'd either stay with the tanks if they were repaired on the spot or hauled off for repair or sent back to the Central workshops for mounting in another tank 3. Yes some did but as I think we've established the men in the grave were almost certainly not tankies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 However, if the graves remained in place and the site later became the Ramicourt British cemetery, then the tank would have been one of the 19 knocked out. The cemetery is to the south of Ramicourt village, whereas Montbrehain is, sort of, ENE. In the panoramic view around the cemetery the village cannot be seen. The 19 tanks were knocked out in the outskirts of the village according to the 1919 account, a map would be useful, the tank that attacked the machine gun nest was also south of Montbrehain which would seemingly also put it south of Ramicourt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 And now I can see that those ropes to the side are just 'stays'. Wrong angle - look at the one on the right - it has a bow indicating that the other end is tied up to the top of something else - it certainly isn't staying or guying anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eirridia Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 Interesting that there's a photo of a crashed plane. Ramicourt battle was 30th Sep - 4th October 1918. Capt Andrew Beauchamp-Proctor shot down a Fokker biplane at Ramicourt on Oct 1st 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eirridia Posted 10 December , 2008 Share Posted 10 December , 2008 I may have misread Key's handwriting I suppose, so here is the back of the photo: It's Regnicourt. Compare the n in tank and the n in Regnicourt. The battle of Regnicourt was on 17th Oct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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