Getafix Posted 25 February , 2009 Share Posted 25 February , 2009 Thode Fagellund (sometimes Fagelund or Fageland). Norwegian, on passage Shanghai to Rotterdam with a cargo of Sesame seed. Sunk 12.3.1917 and credited to UB27. Positions given as 51.40N 02.58E (LLWW1) or 52.14.30N 03.17.30E in Dr Fowlers book. UKHO has this wreck deleted and classified as 'dead' and the Netherlands survey also has deleted it from the PA chart position. What I'm after is any additional info from the German sources, mainly the Uboat concerned. Why? Because the LLWW1 position is frankly unbelievable, a neutral ship would not have sailed merrily past Ostend/Zeebrugge with only about 15-20 miles seperating them and the Uboats and destroyers based there when they were operating unrestricted warfare, and she has not been identified elsewhere, certainly not in Dr Fowlers position which is fairly shallow in diving terms ( about 30 metres ). Any info greatly received. I have her dimensions and place of building etc and I do already know about her stranding pre-war in Australia, and also being involved in a collision in the US - not a very lucky ship! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 February , 2009 Share Posted 25 February , 2009 I would agree, there were strictly designated corridors for neutral shipping to the Netherlands - around the top of Scotland and down the North Sea (very inconvenient). To pass by Ostend and Zeebrugge en route to Rotterdam would imply having come through the English Channel which was strictly off limits for any merchant ship, let alone neutral ones. The only reason to be there would be if she were engaging in blockade running in which case torpedoing here would be very much an own goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 26 February , 2009 Share Posted 26 February , 2009 5th Gen, Flanders U-boat KTBs are not the most user friendly documents. That said, I do have UB 27's KTB and will have a look over the weekend to see whether it gives an exact location or not. The Norwegian loss lst I have gives the position as SW the Noord Hinder LV. Oh, and it's simply inaccurate to say that passage trough Dover was "strictly off limits for any merchant ship, let alone neutral ones." Neurtal ships did at times go through Dover in WWI. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 26 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2009 Thanks, Don't worry, I believe the Thode Fagellund did pass through the Folkestone Gate and the straits of Dover, and then head up the East coast. Neutral shipping (particularly the Dutch) did use this route, heading past the outer Thames estuary and then turning east when North of the Galloper LV. You just have to follow the trail of shipwrecks to see that they did this! Interesting is the position SW of the Noord Hinder LV, I would expect this to be more likely. The LLWW1 position is SE of that LV between the Bligh and Schaar sand banks - too close to Zeebrugge and Ostend for comfort. I have been wondering if a wrong figure was typed in haste into a report - or possibly a mistaken and garbled SOS message was received? I'm following a bit of an intuative hunch Any info could help to prove this, although only a positive ID will confirm it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon S. Posted 26 February , 2009 Share Posted 26 February , 2009 Hi mates, per interrogation of her master, I. A. Hansen, the "Thode Fagelund" (M. B. W. Q.) of Tønsberg (note the correct spelling) was captured 1 1/2 hours after passing Noord Hinder LV, heading 72°. She was sunk by gunfire and explosive charges. The crew were picked up the next morning (12.03.1917) near Maas LV by the Dutch fishing vessel "Julia Nr. 63". There were no casualties. Best wishes, Simon S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 27 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Thanks, That would be about 52.03N 03.12E ish, right where the modern day deep water route into Rotterdam is - just where she would be going. Doesn't help with identifying 'my' wreck however!! Back to the files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi, Can you describe the wreck you found a bit? Maybe will help in identification. Does the wreck look like it has been worked? Any artifacts recovered may help with the ID, of course, especially china or the ship's bell, but if you are a diver with a capital D you of course already know that... Oh, and how deep do you dive? And have you read 'Wealth From The Sea"? -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 27 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi, Can you describe the wreck you found a bit? Maybe will help in identification. Does the wreck look like it has been worked? Any artifacts recovered may help with the ID, of course, especially china or the ship's bell, but if you are a diver with a capital D you of course already know that... Oh, and how deep do you dive? And have you read 'Wealth From The Sea"? -Daniel Hmmm, maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age - or maybe it's just how it comes across on the internet, but I think this could be a little condescending Anyway, I shall answer in reverse order. 'Wealth from the sea' - never heard of it. Is it about researching Scandinavian shipwrecks? I hope I haven't upset the author I dive to Normoxic 3gas ( ) depths. If I had found the bell I wouldn't be asking stupid questions. Ok, seriously, It's needle in a haystack stuff, I have little to go on - I'm churning through names and then looking for photos to see if things match up in the ships layout. It's big ish 3000 tons + I'd guess and cheaply built, portholes are brass however, but cheap and no markings, double dogged. One navigation light had Scandinavian writing, but this could be a red herring - it may just be a replacement. Probably built before 1918 and after 1900, though possibly out to 1925 ish? Likely to be WW1 casualty or as an outside early WW11 (pre-June 1940) the area was heavily magnetic mined in these months. Un-worked and very sanded. UKHO knows not a lot. Dimensions at least 90m or more. Not a lot to go on. And I didn't actually 'find' the wreck, strictly speaking the RN did - I've just dived it! It intrigues me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon S. Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi 5th gen, where rests "your" wreck? Deg's and Min's would be enough to check my d-base. Best wishes, Simon S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi, I was aiming for humorous, not for condescending at all. If it came across that way my sincerest apologies!! I am not a wreck diver, but have been studying a few wrecks for a few projects I have been working on, and was just hoping to help. 'Wealth From the Sea' was all about Risdon Beazley, Marine Salvor, who worked wrecks of all types all over the place. I was suggesting that book because the author gives detailed descriptions of the wrecks they worked with precise coordinates, and maybe one of the wrecks they worked is the one you have been diving. If it does not have significant blast damage (they used polar gelignite to blast open wrecks and take out the goodies) then Risdon likely did not get to it, which is a good thing, but if you see what you think might be mine damage, if it is near a cargo hold, maybe it was workerd after all. Re: the depth, you lost me. I am not a diver (yet, though I hope to get at least PADI certified this coming summer). I was curious as there is a wreck I am chasing in (supposedly) 150 meters of water, and wondered if you went that deep...I know many divers do not, but I thought I would ask anyway. I am very certain there are others on this forum who are better equipped to help, but just wanted to add my info in the odd chance it was helpful. If you do ID her, please let us know? Happy hunting, -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 27 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Fair enough, sorry Daniel. I was doing a bit of clever concealing the depths just to see if you knew! Actually it's 60m. Risdon Beasley could be a little off in their info - they would conceal stuff and lie a little to protect their own interests. I wouldn't take it as gospel, though it may help. The hydrographic stuff (UKHO) would have told me if it was salvaged, and it say's nothing about that. Unfortunately it is very-very sanded so damage and holds are difficult to see. Simon, thankyou, 51.40N 01.58E ( you can see why I was chasing the Thode if there was a misprint in the co-ords! ) that's general, but I doubt you have an on the button mark for it. Outer Thames/ lower North Sea. I have a number of names I can cross off, so don't worry about throwing loads at me. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon S. Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi Alan, the closest wreck I have is the "Ellewoutsdijk", 51°42'30''N 01°57'E, mine from UC 10. Best wishes, Simon S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi Alan, I actually spoke with a fellow who used to work for Risdon and asked him about whether he thought the coordinates in the book were good. He told me they were likely accurate, as the wrecks had all been worked already and as such RB had nothing to gain by distorting the coordinates. Of course, I cannot confirm this personally but there may be others who can. FYI, I also (in the case of the wreck I am looking for) checked with the UK Receiver of Wrecks and got good info that was not on the UKHO reports. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 27 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2009 That's true, something may not have found it's way onto the wreck report. I may well try the receiver, thanks. Ellewoutsdijk is indeed North of this wreck, and has been positively ID'd. Thanks Simon for that, I'm still searching Do you have anything for Peter Hanre? (not sure if correct spelling) Norwegian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon S. Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Hi Alan, the "Peter Hamre" (J. P. G. F.) of Bergen with a cargo of raw iron went down approx. 2 miles SSW of Kentish Knock, torpedoed by UB 10 (Saltzwedel, P.l.M.). 14 lives lost I have an old chart of the Southern North Sea. There are two wrecks at nearly the same position (abt. 1 mile dist.) where the "Ellewoutsdijk" rests, depth 31 metres, abt. 4-5 miles SSW of Galloper. Is this the wreck you are asking for? So long, Simon S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getafix Posted 27 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2009 From my mark, head SSW approx 6 miles, it may not be on your chart however, it appeared late 70's I think, but was found and disregarded 1946 ish Thanks for all your help, but it is a bit like winning the lottery with the limited info! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 2 March , 2009 Share Posted 2 March , 2009 Per UB 27's KTB (typed!), Thode Fagelund was sunk at 51°59.3'N, 3°04.7'E Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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