That age old kilt question

[Tinhat47]

I was just thinking tonight about soldiers wearing the long underwear under the standard wool trousers and that led me to wonder what the kilted troops wore under their kilts. Was it just underpants and no long underwear, or shortened versions of the long underwear? Or ... nothing?

[frogturn]

I was just thinking tonight about soldiers wearing the long underwear under the standard wool trousers and that led me to wonder what the kilted troops wore under their kilts. Was it just underpants and no long underwear, or shortened versions of the long underwear? Or ... nothing?

Hi Matt,

We were stationed in Minden,West Germany in the 60's with the Black Watch,and I can tell you they took wearing nothing under the kilt very seriously,on parade they were checked by a Warrant officer with a mirror on a stick to make sure they confomed.So I expect it was the same in the first War.

Spike Milligan used to say there was nothing worn under the kilt ,it was all in perfect working order.........

Best,Paul.

[burlington]

There is, or was, a WW1 photo in the IWM showing a dead Scottish soldier in a kilt, which was rucked up, and he certainly was not wearing anything underneath!

[MACRAE]

It was traditionally said nothing was worn under the kilt . However at public displays underwear was to be worn to prevent embarrassing ladies . Any time I have worn the kilt its a challange to stop them looking . Most ex service men would agree nothing .

Dan

[Rob B]

There is a very unfortunate modern Officers with HM The Queen photo and the Commanding Officer is displaying all, the importance of smoothing ones kilt down when sitting was highlighted here! And having served with them nothing is worn under.

[Ron Clifton]

According to the Clothing Regulations in force in 1914, "drawers, woollen" were issued to all dismounted troops including kilted units, but the latter's were not taken on active service.

Of course, when blistering agents were used in gas attacks, the Scots seem to have lost interest in their proud tradition pretty quickly!

What the men may have purchased privately, or had sent out by their families, is a different matter. Not protecting the body in inclement weather might lead to injuries which could be classed as self-inflicted, and hence a disciplinary offence.

Ron

[phil@basildon]

Back in the seventies I knew an old soldier who served in a Scottish regiment who told me it was a military offence to wear anything under one's kilt. He considered himself fortunate that he did not come under gas attack like some of his comrades as the gas burned any exposed skin. The only time wearing anything under the kilt was allowed was as it is said during public displays to avoid embarrasing the ladies. Incidently the only film I can think of that dealt with this subject was "Carry on up the Kyber".

[truthergw]

Commanding officers had considerable latitude in the matter of when a kilt was worn and whether underwear could be worn. As mustard gas became ubiquitous, it became commoner for troops to wear either trousers or underwear when that made sense. As far as cold or inclement weather is concerned, I can confirm that kilted troops will probably suffer more in hot weather than cold. A kilt was worn by highlanders, after all. In a partly flooded trench where water was up to knee deep, a kilt would not be any worse than trousers and perhaps, marginally better. A wet kilt is very heavy and can chafe the wearer's legs but it is just as warm and even more windproof than a dry one.

[Steven Broomfield]

At Colenso (in the S African war), men of the Highland Brigade suffered horribly. They were pinned down in extremely hot sunshine, by Boer riflemen. Their kilts had rucked up over the posterior in the rush. and, of course, the chaps couldn't do anything until after dark, as movement meant death.

In the GW I have read of kilted men using the kilt as a sort of shawl at times; the other issue (removing lice from the seams) also features a lot.

Finally, we were not allowed to wear anything underneath, other than at a social function where ladies might be present. Not that many ladies would choose ...

[Andrew Upton]

Commanding officers had considerable latitude in the matter of when a kilt was worn and whether underwear could be worn. As mustard gas became ubiquitous, it became commoner for troops to wear either trousers or underwear when that made sense. As far as cold or inclement weather is concerned, I can confirm that kilted troops will probably suffer more in hot weather than cold. A kilt was worn by highlanders, after all. In a partly flooded trench where water was up to knee deep, a kilt would not be any worse than trousers and perhaps, marginally better. A wet kilt is very heavy and can chafe the wearer's legs but it is just as warm and even more windproof than a dry one.

This has been covered in the past, and all the evidence seems to point towards the issue of underwear or replacing kilts with trousers being a winter thing, and nothing to link the practice to gas see:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...001&hl=kilt

post 6

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...261&hl=kilt

post 9

[PhilB]

. A kilt was worn by highlanders, after all.

I imagine the pleats/folds in a kilt give it a multi-layer effect, rather like double glazing. Presumably the original highland kilts weren`t pleated though?

[truthergw]

Not pleated, Phil but gathered in folds. The original garment was like a woolen sari or toga. Simply a large length of heavy homespun woolen cloth held around the waist with a belt and the surplus over the shoulder. That was the belted plaid. Modern version divided it into two pieces, a kilt and a plaid. Soldiers wore only the kilt with the gathers transformed into pleats.

[Joe Sweeney]

Matt,

Drawers for kilted troops were an item issue and were introduced in 1915 when trench conditions were found, contrary popular beliefs, to be too severe for kilt wearing. RACD Pattern 8538/1915, “Drawers, short, Highlanders”.

From Oct 1915 until the end of the war wiunter clothing issue scales contained to the following instructions on issue to Highlanders.

These also had nothing to do with Mustard Gas.

Joe Sweeney

[Tinhat47]

Aha! So they were issued them but generally abstained from wearing them while in the trenches?

[truthergw]

Matt,

Drawers for kilted troops were an item issue and were introduced in 1915 when trench conditions were found, contrary popular beliefs, to be too severe for kilt wearing. RACD Pattern 8538/1915, "Drawers, short, Highlanders".

From Oct 1915 until the end of the war wiunter clothing issue scales contained to the following instructions on issue to Highlanders.

These also had nothing to do with Mustard Gas.

Joe Sweeney

There is no evidence like documentary evidence but any ex serviceman will know that regardless of regs, there was a lot of local variation. A unit might be entitled to an issue but that does not mean that a CO would allow them to be worn. Rum was issued and there was a ration set out. We know that a whole division did not get it because the CO did not allow it. Also, we do not always make enough allowance for soldiers doing things they ought not to have done. In the rear, on parade, kilts, nothing underneath etc. ( Been there, wore them). In a trench or a freezing cold dugout or in an area which had been gassed, " Whaur's ma drawers" and NCOs turning a blind eye.

[Tom A McCluskey]

"Of course, when blistering agents were used in gas attacks, the Scots seem to have lost interest in their proud tradition pretty quickly!" - Ron Clifton

Ron can you provide any proof of this? As I have not seen any.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Matt,

Please find attached what is worn on the person in Fighting Order for the 9th Black Watch 1917/1918. The second set of drawers is carried in the [Large] pack in Marching Order.

Aye

Tom McC

[tocemma]

Hello all,

As Joe and Tom have shown there is plenty of evidence of drawers woollen and cotton, being issued to Highland units. There are also several well known Somme period photos showing the drawers being worn by 'kiltless' Scottish soldiers, and even braces being used with kilts.

As has been pointed out individual COs had widely differing views on how Regs were enforced.

For interest the photos attached show both versions. The woollen ones shown here are in standard silver-grey flannel but no doubt many colour variations existed.

Tocemma

Edited 12 May , 2020 by tocemma

[tocemma]

ps forgot to add, as with the almost identical drawers issued in WW2 extra buttons were often added, as the open fly front allowed the 'toggle and two' to hang out in an alarming manner! Sometimes they were worn reversed ie the fly at the back, as can be seen in period photos.

The cotton pair shown has had part of the fly sewn up for this reason.....

Tocemma

[Tinhat47]

Wow! I've never seen those before.

[ARMAGH]

Hi Matt,

We were stationed in Minden,West Germany in the 60's with the Black Watch,and I can tell you they took wearing nothing under the kilt very seriously,on parade they were checked by a Warrant officer with a mirror on a stick to make sure they confomed.So I expect it was the same in the first War.

Spike Milligan used to say there was nothing worn under the kilt ,it was all in perfect working order.........

Best,Paul.

In reply to frogturn

Having served in the Black Watch (RHR) FROM 1960 TO 1972 and in Minden,I have never seen or heard of a Warrant Officer or any other officer use a mirror to check under the kilt.

Yours

Joe

[Joe Sweeney]

Matt,

Here is a picture of a 7th BW wearing underwear--in an odd context (at a Grenade range). Somewhere I have a photo of a Canadian in the trenches also wearing the short underwear under hois kilt and will post when I find it.

They were available and worn.

Joe Sweeney

[Tinhat47]

Thanks Joe!

I wonder where that guy's kilt went!

[MACRAE]

Hello all,

As Joe and Tom have shown there is plenty of evidence of drawers woollen and cotton, being issued to Highland units. There are also several well known Somme period photos showing the drawers being worn by 'kiltless' Scottish soldiers, and even braces being used with kilts.

As has been pointed out individual COs had widely differing views on how Regs were enforced.

For interest the photos attached show both versions. The woollen ones shown here are in standard silver-grey flannel but no doubt many colour variations existed.

Tocemma

So this is where my wifes kit went to the other day . Tocemma you have a lot to answer to. Dan

[tocemma]

Dan,

I have an alibi.......I hope

TM