MG08/15 - firing on the move

[centurion]

Found this photo (see link) when looking for something else. I've heard of the Lewis fired on the move but the Mg08/15 was much heavier. Is this just a propaganda or training photo or was this part of the normal tactical use of this weapon?

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/482/69383052.jpg

[Jack Sheldon]

Rare, unlikely and wildly inaccurate I would say. I suspect that that is a training or trials photo. One of the big issues arising out of the German counter-attack at Cambrai was what to do about the 08/15 in the attack. Its use transformed the firepower in the defence, but a crew-served, belt fed weapon which weighed 18 kg was far from handy in the attack. I have included quite a lengthy section about it in my forthcoming book on Cambrai. What the Germas really needed were Lewis guns or Browning Automatic Rifles but, lacking them, they had to try to devise methods of using what they did have: the mass-produced 08/15, a weapon whose designation was widely used right through the Second World War as contemptuous army slang for every pointless aspect of army life, equipment or activity. A bit like SNAFU. It was also the overall title of a famous trilogy written by Hans Helmut Kirst which first appeared in 1954.

Jack

[bob lembke]

In mid-1916 my father's regiment (Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment {Flammenwerfer} ) was allocated two MG 08/15 per company, but they wanted a lighter gun and more MGs, and at least in his company, they adopted about two French Chauchat per platoon. (I know, I know, it is generally considered the worst MG in the history of the world, but it seems, while the gun modified to fire the US .30-06 was totally impossible, in the less powerful French round, and carefully selected and cleaned, and with a clean magazine, according to MG-expert Forumites, the gun seems to have been reasonably reliable.) Pop told me that the operator clipped two rifle slings together end to end, and clipped the ends to the gun, and was able to fire the gun on the walk slung from the shoulder. The weapon only weighed 19 pounds without the 20 round magazine. Of course it was useful in the attack, but potentially even more useful when a position was taken and counter-attacked; the Flammenwerfer is an effective offensive weapon, but a miserable defensive weapon, doubly so when the flame oil was exhausted. Once in a French position, there was more ammunition lying about, and possibly even some charged magazines.

If the men brought back one of these guns from an attack, a sum of money was paid into the company welfare fund.

Any markings on the reverse of the card? The garbled English caption is curious.

Bob Lembke

[Angular]

There's at least one in every battalion, usually 6'6" and unburdened by promotion, who likes to fire the gun from the hip or the shoulder. The 'beaten zone' usually encompasses all of the neighbouring county, and he's often really pleased when the range staff grab him and tear the belt off the gun before it knocks him over.

[alex falbo]

This bloke seems to at least fire it upright. Not sure if they're blanks as the recoil is low but then again the weapon is heavy.

It would be interesting to see the wartime manuals the Germans published on the tactical use of the weapon.

[centurion]

The fact that he has a sling not unlike that used by Lewis gunners to fire whilst advancing made me wonder if this was an approved tactic rather than a Rambo approach

[James Blonde]

Can anybody make out what is on the left of the pair, looks to be a vehicle of some type.

Connaught Stranger.

[Mark Finneran]

I am not so sure that the man holding the 08/15 is firing the thing. The photo to me shows almost the soldier with the sling has control but the position indicates the buttstock, and therefore the pistol grip assembly under the control of the second man. Maybe it is the angle but the 08/15 trommel drum is almost in the middle of the weapon, therefore the image says to me there is much more 'metal' to the rear of the front man.

Providing he keeps his arm away from the moving parts - it could be done. Accuracy, heat and other factors may make this a rather ''brave'' idea!!

Just a thought.................

Can anybody make out what is on the left of the pair, looks to be a vehicle of some type.

Connaught Stranger.

[Hoplophile]

The cut of the jackets worn by the men, the finish on the helmets, and the lack of bread bags, water bottles, and the like suggests to me that this is an interwar picture rather than a scene from the Great War. Peacetime armies often indulge in techniques that combine great theatrical effect with minimal combat value.

[Tom W.]

From Daniel D. Musgrave, German Machineguns (Alexandria, Virginia: Ironside International Publishers, Inc., 1992), p. 102.

[Tom W.]

From "Extract from the Report of the Commission for the Inspection of the Methods of Application of Flamethrowers by the Germans in Combat on November 9, 1916, in the Region of the Skrobova Stream":

"For further offensives the flamethrower operators were usually gathered in groups of 5, 7, or 10 men; each such group was apparently composed in some organizational way around one flamethrower. From the statements of some eyewitnesses, in these groups there were grenadiers and men with light machine guns or automatic rifles."

This was the Knife tactic (Messertaktik) - using flame shock troops (Flammenstosstrupps) organized as long, single-file formations comprised of six Kleif troops, a hand-grenade squad from the Guard Reserve Pioneer Regiment, and several infantry groups that included light machine gunners and automatic riflemen, under the command of flamethrower officers and deputy officers. Each Kleif troop contained two Kleif squads, for a total of 12 flamethrowers per flame shock troop. The flame shock troop attacked the enemy line perpendicularly at great speed. Once it had punched through, the hand-grenade throwers, machine-gunners, and automatic riflemen turned to the sides to suppress flanking fire and screen infantry assault troops that followed 55 to 110 yards behind the flame shock troops.

The light machine gunners fired on the run, according to German and Russian reports.

From H. Colin, Le Fort de Souville: L’Heure Suprême à Verdun (Paris: Payot, 1938), p. 120, describing a battle that took place on July 11, 1916:

"On the right, a battalion of Bavarian alpine hunters [Jäger] progresses in a compact column. They take up a front of at least hundred meters and extend back nearly one hundred fifty meters. Preceded by their flamethrowers with which they spray the last resistance, they advance rightward in the direction of the Powder Keg. On the sides of this dense cohort one can distinguish officers or NCOs exhorting their men with gestures. This helmeted mass is flanked by light machine guns which fire on the march."

[Piorun]

Interesting commentaries - but, at 18kg, the 8/15 was hardly a "light" machine gun. The photos may not have been "inter-war" but, rather like a short segment of the Somme moving pictures, merely staged propaganda. The shot of the two men does seem to indicate that the second man is firing and the holder is merely acting as a bipod. Interestingly, as most propaganda shots will eventually be shown to do, the first shot appears to contradict the concept of the second. The fog of battle obscures the truth.

[Mark Finneran]

Tom W's photo confirms that at least the butt stock is to the rear of the front man, but suggests he can fire it too. As to my offering - this is clearly where Sadaam picked up his idea of human shield. A tactic I shall be adopting at my new place of work

Interesting commentaries - but, at 18kg, the 8/15 was hardly a "light" machine gun. The photos may not have been "inter-war" but, rather like a short segment of the Somme moving pictures, merely staged propaganda. The shot of the two men does seem to indicate that the second man is firing and the holder is merely acting as a bipod. Interestingly, as most propaganda shots will eventually be shown to do, the first shot appears to contradict the concept of the second. The fog of battle obscures the truth.

[Robert Dunlop]

From "Extract from the Report of the Commission for the Inspection of the Methods of Application of Flamethrowers by the Germans in Combat on November 9, 1916, in the Region of the Skrobova Stream"...

From H. Colin, Le Fort de Souville: L’Heure Suprême à Verdun (Paris: Payot, 1938), p. 120, describing a battle that took place on July 11, 1916...

Thanks Tom. I am uncertain about how many MG08/15s were available in July 11, 1916.

Robert

[Jack Sheldon]

Good point Robert. The answer is almost certainly none. Provision of additional LMGs was a priority for Ludendorff after he took over that September. The weapons concerned were most probably Musketen - (mis)appropriated Madsen machine guns used in small quantities in 1916 both on the Somme and at Verdun.

Jack

[centurion]

Good point Robert. The answer is almost certainly none. Provision of additional LMGs was a priority for Ludendorff after he took over that September. The weapons concerned were most probably Musketen - (mis)appropriated Madsen machine guns used in small quantities in 1916 both on the Somme and at Verdun.

Jack

Not the role in which they were used (they were used by teams of breakthrough blockers) so Chauchats more likely

[Jack Sheldon]

Centurion

I did not know that the Germans ever used these French weapons, which were spectacularly awful and extremely unreliable. It seems to have been rare for them to fire more than two short bursts without them jamming, or parts, especially springs, breaking. Can you provide any more on them? The Madsen, on the other hand, apart from needing good quality ammunition and reasonably careful handling was a good weapon. I cannot see (apart from the relatively small numbers available) why it could not have been used to support an advance - and there were definitely Musketen battalions down at Verdun.

Jack

[centurion]

Centurion

I did not know that the Germans ever used these French weapons, which were spectacularly awful and extremely unreliable. It seems to have been rare for them to fire more than two short bursts without them jamming, or parts, especially springs, breaking. Can you provide any more on them? The Madsen, on the other hand, apart from needing good quality ammunition and reasonably careful handling was a good weapon. I cannot see (apart from the relatively small numbers available) why it could not have been used to support an advance - and there were definitely Musketen battalions down at Verdun.

Jack

Read some of the many posts in this forum from Bob Lemke whose father was in one of the flammenwerfer units - they used the Chauchat not the madsen. Their Chauchats were carefully selected and stripped down to reject any with manufacturing faults (one of the bug bears of the Chauchat).The Musketen units were employed as mobile breakthough pluggers for which they used the Madsen. Madsens were also used by some German alpine units. The Germans could call on significant numbers captured from the Russian cavalry as well as those aquire via some skullduggery from the Danes.

[Jack Sheldon]

Thanks for the tip. I suppose that they must have captured loads of them. Certainly for a while when they ran short of Madsdens, the Musketen teams made widespread use of Lewis guns until they eventually re-equipped with weapons from the 08 series and were effectively absorbed into the mass of MG detachments.

Jack

[Piorun]

As to my offering - this is clearly where Sadaam picked up his idea of human shield. A tactic I shall be adopting at my new place of work

Good one, Mark

[centurion]

Thanks for the tip. I suppose that they must have captured loads of them. Certainly for a while when they ran short of Madsdens, the Musketen teams made widespread use of Lewis guns until they eventually re-equipped with weapons from the 08 series and were effectively absorbed into the mass of MG detachments.

Jack

As far as I can find they didn't run short of Madsens but passed them on to the alpine units (which might suggest that the Madsens had not proved satisfactory). The advantage for the Alpiners was their extreme lightness, and being air cooled they didn't freeze over night like the Mg08/15. Up in the rock and snow, mud (which seems to have been the Madsens' bete noir) wouldn't be a problem.

[Pete1052]

I believe the Sturmgewehr or so-called assault rifle was the Wehrmacht's solution of the dilemma posed by automatic crew-served weapons being to heavy for bringing forward rapidly during infantry assaults. Many of the selective fire automatic-semiautomatic rifles of nominal .30 caliber developed in the '40s to '60s simply couldn't be controlled by a lot of guys during fully automatic fire. Hence one of the reasons for the controversial 5.56 NATO cartridge.

[Tom W.]

I did not know that the Germans ever used these French weapons, which were spectacularly awful and extremely unreliable.

I posted this photo in another thread. The sign reads "In memory of the assault school, 11th Squad, 37th Brigade, July 7, 1917." There's a stamp on back from the 1st Company of Infantry Regiment No. 74.

[James Blonde]

If its any contribution to the topic,

I believe the Maxim drum mag was only capable of holding 100 rds?

so some poor chump would have had to have been on hand to carry the reloads.

Connaught Stranger.

[centurion]

If its any contribution to the topic,

I believe the Maxim drum mag was only capable of holding 100 rds?

so some poor chump would have had to have been on hand to carry the reloads.

Just as was the case with the Lewis