MIC Clarification

[Steve11]

Can anyone give me a clarification on the MIC.

What is the significance of the 'Date of entry therein' (under 'Theatre of War first served in').

Is the date only entered for awards like the 14 or 14-15 star where there is an actual qualifying date?

And is the date the actual date the named soldier entered that theatre of war thus qualifying for the award?

Or does it signify some other point in the soldiers service?

Steve

[hmsk212]

Hi Steve

It is just what it says on the packet, it is the date that the soldier first entered a theatre of war and is normally only put on a medal index card when the soldier qualified for a 1914 Star or a 1914/15 Star

Steve

[Steve11]

Thanks Steve - the date can be a useful piece of information then when the service records are not available.

Steve

[hmsk212]

Hi Steve

Yes the date can come in handy, for instance it can tell you whether or not your man went over to the Theatre of War with his Battalion or if he went at a later date as a replacement,

Steve

[hmsk212]

Hi Steve

Me again, it can also tell you, for example, if he took part in the landings at Gallipoli or if he went in with a later wave of men. If you look at the mother site it may then help you identify which battles he took part in with his Battalion. It can also help you to identify which Battalion he belonged to if all you have is his Regiment.

Steve

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Just to add, medal cards for other ranks usually give dates of entry when a 14 or 14/15 Star was awarded. But the date of entry appears on the MICs of all Officers regardless of their medal entitlement.

Some medal rolls are also helpful in this respect: the rolls of the Royal Fusiliers and London Regiments give dates of service in particular theatres ie:

1: 15.9.16 - 28.1.18

So a soldier with this would have served in France from 15 Sept 1916 to 28 Jan 1918.

Ian

[Steve11]

The mother site info fits perfectly with what I've found out so far.

My grandfather's date of entry for his 15 Star is 7-10-15 and the Medal Rolls give a reference to the 17th Hvy Bty RGA.

The mother site shows the 17th moved to France in Oct 1915. Perfect - I'm very pleased to finally be making progress on this.

Thanks

Steve

[Aurel Sercu]

This may sound like nitpicking, but as I want to find out whether a certain soldier took part in a certain military operation or not ...

Entering the Theatre of War ... I suppose that means the very day he set foot on foreign territory ? (i.e. in my research France)

Or was it the day he left the UK ? (Yes, I know in most cases this must have been the same day, but maybe when the boat sailed off late in the evening ...)

Or is that date on the MIC the day he actually reached the front lines ? (And I suppose considering the distance there must have been a couple of days between arriving in France and arriving at the front ?)

Sorry if this sounds like something futile, but I have been wondering about this for quite qome time. And have not had the courage to ask... And with this thread giving me the opportunity to 'hijack' it I can no longer resist.

Aurel

[rflory]

Ian said:

Just to add, medal cards for other ranks usually give dates of entry when a 14 or 14/15 Star was awarded. But the date of entry appears on the MICs of all Officers regardless of their medal entitlement.

Ian: I am sorry, but this is simply not true. I have numerous MICs to officers that do not give a date of entry into a theater of war. As with other ranks' MICs this is particulary true of officers who went overseas in 1917 and 1918. I even have MICs without dates of entry for officers who received the 1914-1915 Star. Regards. Dick Flory

[rflory]

Aurel said:

Entering the Theatre of War ... I suppose that means the very day he set foot on foreign territory ? (i.e. in my research France)

Or was it the day he left the UK ? (Yes, I know in most cases this must have been the same day, but maybe when the boat sailed off late in the evening ...)

Or is that date on the MIC the day he actually reached the front lines ? (And I suppose considering the distance there must have been a couple of days between arriving in France and arriving at the front ?)

Aurel: It is certainly not the last of the three choices you give. My understanding is that it is suppose to be the date of entry into the theater of war (ie. the disembarkation date), but, at least for the Royal Artillery, I have had real problems reconciling the date on the MIC with the date of disembarkation of many RFA brigades and RGA siege batteries and heavy batteries. Sometimes the date on the MIC is the same as the embarkation date of the unit, sometimes the date is the same as the disembarkation date, and sometimes it doesn't match either of them but is a day or so later, or earlier.

Regards. Dick Flory

[Steve11]

The date you gave me a couple of days ago Dick for the embarkation of the 17th Hvy Bty (see Units & Formations, 17th Hvy Bty RGA) exactly matches the date on my grandfathers MIC - 07 Oct 1915 (see also this thread above).

Steve

[rflory]

Steve: True, but that is not always the case. Regards. Dick

[Ali Hollington]

Could the variation in dates when only slight be due to the unit deploying in different parties? Nowadays it is common for military units to deploy with a pre-advance party, an advance party and main party (often broken down into smaller serials). During my time in the army I never remember any of my units deploying in one go.

Ali

[Aurel Sercu]

My understanding is that it is suppose to be the date of entry into the theater of war (ie. the disembarkation date), but, at least for the Royal Artillery, I have had real problems reconciling the date on the MIC with the date of disembarkation of many RFA brigades and RGA siege batteries and heavy batteries. Sometimes the date on the MIC is the same as the embarkation date of the unit, sometimes the date is the same as the disembarkation date, and sometimes it doesn't match either of them but is a day or so later, or earlier.

Dick,

Knowing that the MIC date of "entering a theatre of war" is not the date they arrived at the front, but the disembarkation date (or sometimes the embarkation date) certainly helps. Thanks !

And so I'm left with another question (to you or anybody who might have relevant info) : Was it normal to send the reinforcements to the front lines as fast as possible, so that maybe they already arrived at the front the following day or two days later (and got involved in a military operation right from the start), or were they given some time (a couple of days) to get acclimatized, to soften the shock of battlefield reality ?

I know what the answer will be : depending of course on how urgently necessary the reinforcements were... But maybe someone has other clarifying info as to what was 'normal' ?

Aurel

[Muerrisch]

For RWF it was normal to be held at a base depot [this was once the routine of the Western Front was established]. Soldiers were not "Pte Bloggs. J. 12345 to go to 19RWF". They were put into a draft when sent from UK, [from the 3rd Bn usually] held at a base depot, and redrafted, possibly with a totally different set of RWF men, to the front when needed. There was not even an absolute right to go to any battalion of the regiment; in an emergency they could be sent to any other battalion of any other regiment. I know of a Cpl Drummer of 15 Notts and Derbys [bantams, and he was one indeed] sent to a kilted Scottish regiment. Both parties were horrified, but he had the last laugh, ending the war as a Jock CSM.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Langley. Useful.

Personally I don't think my man (and the others of the draft) after disembarking were held at the base depot for a long time.

2/Royal Irish Regt. had suffered enormous losses on 19 October 1914 (at Le Pilly, Riez) : the strength of the Bn. had dropped from 20 officers and 884 OR to 1 officer and 135 OR ! And I suppose when the draft arrived in France they were sent to the battalion pretty soon.

Aurel