Gallipoli and Haig books

[GlenBanna]

Could forum members recommend what they consider to be the the best book on each of these topics.

Thanks

Glen

[truthergw]

Well worth doing a search in this sub forum. There have been many good reviews and lists of books on both subjects, over a long period. For what it is worth, I would say That Bourne & Sheffield's edition of Haig's military diaries is a must. Every discussion will mention this book at some point. Personally, I believe that with subjects as contentious as these, the only satisfactory answer was to read everything I could lay my hands and eyes on. That way I hope to have a broad foundation to base an opinion on.

[Jonathan Saunders]

For Gallipoli Tim Travers Gallipoli 1915.

Haig is more difficult. Personally I like the new Harris biography, which I find thought provoking, however Harris is also presenting a psychological viewpoint and therefore he makes many assumptions on what he thinks Haig was thinking, for which there does not always exist tangiable evidence. Rather than there being one recommendation I suggest you read widely on Haig and make your own judgements.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Philip Wilson]

For a fresh look at Gallipoli then FM Lord Carver's book 'The Turkish Front' which covers the Turkish Question has various chapters covering all three Campaigns - At Gallipoli, in Mesopotamia and in Palestine.

ISBN 0 283 07347 0 - first published in 2003 - it has a selected Bibliography for further reading. An excellent book.

'Haig - A Reappraisal 70 years On' edited by Brian Bond and Nigel Cave is well worth reading. It contains a collection of essays resulting from collaboration between the Douglas Haig Fellowship and the British Commission for Military History. The 14 distinguished contributors essays cover all the main controversies and areas of contention and provides an account of historical debate when first published in 1999 and provides a more objective placement of Haig's contribution. ISBN 0 85052 698 1.

Haig should not be studied in isolation and 'Haig's Generals' edited by Ian F.W.Beckett and Steven J.Corvi published in 2006, is equally well worth reading. ISBN 1 84415 169 7.

It asseses their careers and characters, critically examining their performance in command as well as their relationship with Haig himself.

[GlenBanna]

Thanks Philip, Jonathan and truthergw for your contributions. I thought Haig would be a tricky one.

Regard

Glen

[Crunchy]

As a primer to the study of Haig try Andrew A Wriest. Haig. The Evolution of a Commander. Potomac Books, Washington DC, 2005 137pp. It provides a short, fair and balanced overview. Harris lacks balance and, as Jonathan says, many of his assumptions cannot be sustained by the evidence available.

Cheers

Chris

[GlenBanna]

Thanks Chris

I will try to get hold of a copy

Glen

[Pete1052]

As a primer to the study of Haig try Andrew A Wriest. Haig. The Evolution of a Commander. Potomac Books, Washington DC, 2005 137pp

There's no letter "r" in Wiest. Do people have any other Haig biographies to recommend?

[charlesmessenger]

Gary Sheffield's biography of Haig will be published next year by HarperCollins. Should prtove to be more balanced than Harris.

Charles M

[GlenBanna]

Has anyone got this edition? Is it worth buying?

The Haig Diaries: War Diaries and Letters 1914-1918: The Diaries of Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig by Sir Douglas Haig Edited by Gary Sheffield, John Bourne

Glen

[Pete1052]

Within Great War circles Haig's reputation may have been considerably rehabilitated, but it most certainly hasn't been among military history generalists. The other day I heard the familiar Haig-as-butcher stereotype from a knowledgeable and well-read guy, so if the last book on the subject one has read was published 30 years ago it's likely to have had the older point of view.

[truthergw]

Has anyone got this edition? Is it worth buying?

The Haig Diaries: War Diaries and Letters 1914-1918: The Diaries of Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig by Sir Douglas Haig Edited by Gary Sheffield, John Bourne

Glen

That is the book I recommended a few posts ago. There are many biographies of Haig. I own about a dozen. I think you have to read them all.

[Pete1052]

On another forum a published author on military subjects asked what book on Haig he should read. Earlier in the thread I had mentioned Terraine, so when he asked I took Crunchy's advice and recommended Wiest's Haig: The Evolution of a Commander. I don't believe the person asking has the time or inclination to read twelve books.

[truthergw]

Within Great War circles Haig's reputation may have been considerably rehabilitated, but it most certainly hasn't been among military history generalists. The other day I heard the familiar Haig-as-butcher stereotype from a knowledgeable and well-read guy, so if the last book on the subject one has read was published 30 years ago it's likely to have had the older point of view.

Not quite, Pete. The first biographies were unanimous in greeting him as a great General. Blake's version of the diaries. Duff-Cooper's official biography. He is invariably mentioned with approval in biographies and memoirs of his contemporaries published in the twenties. Robertson's books, Gough's 5th Army and so on. The criticism started in the thirties, with Lloyd George's War Memoirs. and then as the anti war feeling grew and with it the antipathy to the men who had been in command, so there was no lack of band wagon jumpers, many of whom had their own axe to grind. Then along came the second round and it was bad form to criticise any British Generals. We have to wait a decade or more for Clark's book which centred on 1915 and implied that that year was a description of the war and the generals who had fought in it. Again, it caught a mood and appealed to that thread in the British psyche which loves to tell the world how bad we are. If one lines up the post WW2 biographies, the majority neither damn nor laud him. There have been two or three which are very critical. Winter of course, althogh that seems to be very seldom quoted now. Wolff's book " In Flander's Field", is a marvellous book and I would definitely urge anyone with an interest in the Great War to read it although it centres on IIIYpres. It does not spare Haig nor many of the other commanders. Of the recent books, Harris was a great disappointment. When published, I picked it up in the shop with my tokens clasped in my feverish palm and gave it the obligatory skim before buying. I ended by replacing it on the shelf. Not worth the tokens.

[GlenBanna]

Thanks for the advice Truthergw

I have bought a secondhand hardback copy on ebay tonight for £9.99

Glen

[Rory Stephens]

Gallipoli by Joe Murray - excellent!

[MartinWills]

Hmmmm,

Gallipoli.

Joe Murray's volume is a fascinating personal account. Travers, despite initially finding favour with all, raises a few controversies and, I think, has to be read with a pinch of salt at times. Steel and Hart's "Defeat at Gallipoli" is a good standby and Peter Liddles "Men of Gallipoli" provides a good medley of personal accounts.

It is difficult to find anything significant about the French involvement. There are a veritable hoard of Australian orientated volumes. I could suggest Les Carlyon's Gallipoli but I think I would plump for Peter Stanley's outstanding portrait on "Quinns Post" painting a fine picture of this one hotspot on the ANZAC front line available as a very reasonable paperback.

Bean's Australian Official History, of which two thick volumes cover Gallipoli as the story of ANZAC, ia available on-line at the awm website - very readable, but there is a lot of it!!!!

As for the NZ faction, I would plump for Chris Pugsley's 1984 "The New Zealanders at Gallipoli" if you can find a copy. It's seriously underated and can be seriously hard to find other than through libraries.

That leaves tha Naval side - a major contribution, but oft forgotten. For the submarine side, I would go for Hunter & Shankland's 1964 "Dardanelles Patrol". On the surface there is the first volume of Roger Keyes memoirs "Naval Memoirs of Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes: Narrow Seas to the Dardanelles, 1910-1915" or possibly Wester-Weymss "The Navy in the Dardanelles Campaign".

That should give you plenty the chew over!

[bluedog]

Glen

I will second the books suggested by Martin, and if you add in Bean's "Gallipoli Mission"

also on line from the Australian War Memorial site you should get a good overview of

mainly the Anzac Sector.

Add to this "Gallipoli Sniper" (the story of Billy Sing , the Assassin) and "Goodbye Cobber

God Bless You" about the "Charge at the Nek",( both by John Hamilton.)

Being an Australian I am perhaps biased but all these are a good read.

Cheers

Peter

[truthergw]

It's been some time since I looked at this thread. I have very little knowledge of the actual fighting at Gallipoli. I am more interested in how it came to be fought and the political battle to apportion and evade blame for its failure. I have not come across an Australian author dealing with this aspect but if there is one, I'd be grateful for a pointer. Not many seem to share this interest in why the ANZACs joined their British and French allies in this ultimately futile struggle but for those who do, works dealing with Churchill, Lord Hankey and the Supreme Command, its predecessors and successors are all informative. The two little books in the Uncovered Editions series by HMSO , on the work of the Dardanelles Commission are out of print, I believe, but can be picked up easily. Most informative.

[bluedog]

truthergw

Australia became involved in WW1 for three reasons:

Firstly, although they were a nation in their own right since 1901 we still held close

ties to the "Mother Country".

Secondly, If Australia became involved, other countries would have a greater respect

for the diminutive new nation.

Thirdly,at the time, Prime minister Andrew Fisher promised that Australia would stand

behind their "Mother Country" to the last man and the last shilling.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Peter

[truthergw]

truthergw

Australia became involved in WW1 for three reasons:

...........................................

Hope this helps

Cheers

Peter

Hi Peter, thanks very much for your reply. Is it safe to assume then, that no Australian author has analysed why Gallipoli was fought ?

[ianjonesncl]

Gallipoli

Gallipoli - LA Carlyon Although over 500 pages long I found this a very readable book

A book I found in a bookshop in Canakkale gives an account from the Turkish side through the diary of an Officer - Gallipoli 1915 Bloody Ridge (Lone Pine) Diary of Lt Mehmed Fasih 5th Imperial Ottoman Army 1915

Haig

Architect of Victory Douglas Haig - Walter Reid. This book gives a balanced view to Haig. The opening chapter is titled Butcher and Bungler or Architect of Victory ? The book then traces Haig's life and career, bringing out the influences and events which shaped is command.

[bluedog]

ianjonescl

I also found "Bloody Ridge" by Lt.Mehded Fashir a good read but I think

that "Gallipoli the Turkish Story" by Kevin Brewster, Vecihi Basarin and

hatice hurmuz Basarin a better read.

Peter

[michaeldr]

Peter & Tom,

Carlyon in his book on Gallipoli covers some of this aspect within his chapter 'Him and Me are Mates'

To the points already made by Peter, Carlyon adds one more; Japan.

After her success in the recent war with Russia, Japan was beginning to loom larger in the consciousness of Australians, who at this time did not consider themselves Asian or to be indeed, a part of Asia. They were however concerned about their newly powerful neighbour. Carlyon gives as an example the letter (December 1914) from the Colonial Secretary to the Governor General asking him to '…prepare the Australian Government for the possibility that, when the war ended, Japan would keep the German islands it had grabbed in the Pacific...' The Australians had already captured Rabaul and German New Guinea; 'Had Australia stayed out of the war, Japan would probably have ended up with a large chunk of New Guinea. Australia would not have wanted the Japanese so close.'

One further insight offered by Carlyon, is that in the Australian election that year, the prospect of war was a non-issue. As well as the words of Fisher (Labour) mentioned above, Carlyon also quotes Joseph Cook (Liberal) "Whatever happens, Australia is part of the empire to the full. Remember that when the empire is at war, so is Australia at War."

regards

Michael

[MartinWills]

A couple of naval volumes that I should have added -

Eric Bush - Gallipoli A midshipman who was in control of Bacchante's picket boat for the ANZAC landings - a fine account by a man who rose to high office in later years

H M Denham - Dardanelles - A midshipmans diary 1915-1916

Both are easy to find, despite being out of print and both are good reads.