20th Labour Btn Notts&Derby.

[Simon R]

Could someone kindly provide me with basic details of 20th Labour Btn. Notts and Derby regt. i.e. which brigade, what division even!

Point being - had a relative invalided out due to myopia and trench fever 1918.

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Simon,

Brtish Regiments 1914 - 1918 says this

20th (Labour) Battalion

Formed at Derby May 1916 and went to France. June 1916 to April 1917 Fifth Army Troops. April 1917 transferred to Labour Corps as 28th and 29th Labour Coys.

Andy

[Ivor Lee]

Simon

If you want to send me his details and the dates you have I will let you know what we have on them and the Labour Corps company he was in.

[Simon R]

I'll mail you off-forum Ivor if that's ok.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Simon,

Some stuff on my new site here.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Andrew,

I found your description of Labour Companies as 'non combatant troops' interesting particularly as each Labour Coy had 2 Lewis Gun teams and I believe this was expanded after March 1918.

Labour Companies served as emergency infantry and were deployed in the line during the German March 1918 offensive.

Ian

[Andrew Hesketh]

Ian,

By 'interesting' you, of course, mean 'wrong'!?

You are of course correct, and this was a generalisation indicating that combat was not their primary function. All sorts of troops carried out roles that were not their primary function but would we necessarily have to describe them all when speaking in a generalised context? It's no different from describing a regular infantry battalion as combat troops when, in reality, much of what they did was non-combat duties.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Andrew,

There are a number of 'factoids' circulating about the Labour Corps which people may or may not be aware of - one of them is that they were not employed in a combat role or anywhere near a combat zone. The figures for men killed in action speak for the latter.

Personally speaking, having spent sometime researching both Infantry soldiers and soldiers of the Labour Corps, and being a boxer for over 20 years, I know who I would want on my side in a fight

Ian

[Ivor Lee]

Ian/Andrew

Whilst Ian is correst in talking about Labour Corps Companies being armed this was not done to make them combat troops - just the opposite.

The decision was made in 1918 so they should be afforded the means of self-protection in the event of contact with the enemy, and "not that they should form a reserve fighting force".

The training in the use of Lewis guns was intended for protection against enemy aircraft. This was even the case for the Garrison Guard Companies who were used for tasks like guarding ammo dumps and as anti aircraft units.

Other Labour Corps were used for guard duties when they would carry arms.

During the March 1918 offensive Labour Corps men did get involved in some action but this was more a case of accident than by planning

I would agree totally with Ian's remarks about the number of LC men who were killed in action although it must be remembered that we are talking about being killed by shelling, gas or bombing rather than in the trenches.

I would not argue with Andrew's use of the word non-combatant as the Corps primary function was not combat. IMHO calling them non-combatant serves to recognise and applaud their bravery and contribution to the war effort rather than diminish it.

As I have said before these were the old, infirmed and injured men who worked for days or even weeks at a time, unarmed and within the range of German guns. Their role was equally important as the front line soldier.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Ivor,

Your contribution is most helpful in clarifying the issue.

Andrew

[Simon R]

There wouldn't have been much point giving my great grandfather a rifle anyway, his eye test results show he was blind as a bat.

[Andrew Hesketh]

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ivor,

Your contribution is most helpful in clarifying the issue.

Andrew

No - it does not clarify the issue, particularly if we are saying that Labour Corps men did not go into the trenches.

For instance why were platoon sized groups of men from the IAFF Labour Coy taken from Bettencourt Airfield during October 1918 and, I quote from the 83rd Wing Daily Orders, 'Drew weapons and equipment for duties in the trenches'. On further research this proved to be in the American Sector - they were close to the Argonne Sector. The Coy lost 2 men on this 'non combatant' duty to sniper fire so it is recorded. What they were doing there is however not recorded.

Ian

[Andrew Hesketh]

Ian,

I'm not disagreeing with you!! I fully accept (and I've come acroos examples too) of Labour Corps personnel being in the thick of the action. I repeat, my point is that combat was not their primary function.

[Ivor Lee]

Ian

IAFF Labour Company- perhaps I am being thick but can you explain the initials? Is this AEF - American?

If this is a British COmpany I do not think I have seen a reference to it in any of the War Office documentation so am extremely concerned to find out what it is!

Yes there were armed men - especially the Garrison Guard Companies. There is also a problem in that during the summer of 1918 some companies were changed from Labour Companies to other regimental units. I am thinking of the Companies that became units like the 45th Royal Fusiliers. I agree that during the change over period some of these served in trenches whilst still called Labour Companies but they were in effect another regiment.

We also know that, at times, a few LC men were in trench areas for burial duties.

The other aspect, of course, is the foreign labour units - particularly the BWIR, who were used as combat soldiers in the Middle East. However I was only thinking of British Labour Companies.

I am looking forward to hearing from you on this one as IAFF may be a most important part of their history.

[Ivor Lee]

Ian

I have checked through the War Diaries and War Office documents without success.

A thought crossed my mind - could it be 1(st) AEF Labour Company? It would make sense for it to be empluyed in the American sector?

Also what was the date of the death of these two men so I can check against the LC casualty list.

As you will appreciate I am very anxious to solve this enigma.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ivor,

I mistyped what I should have typed was 'IAF' Labour Company as in Independent Air Force Labour Company previously known as 87 Coy, before as is recorded in the Daily Routine Orders in October 1918, it was renamed.

Ian

[Ivor Lee]

Ian,

It gets more and more interesting!

In July and September 1918 87 Company were working for the RAF.

They are then missing until 5 November 1918 when they are back in 1sr Army area.

I remember now you telling me about this entry before.

Do you have any dates for the deaths of these men? I do not have any 87 Company deaths for this period but they could be amongst the men whose Company is unknown/uncertain.

On the question of what they were doing I would suspect either repair or building work. Arming them would probaly be for self defence rather than to use them as a combat unit. All the War Office documentation is quite clear that LC units are to be armed for defence purposes and not for use as reserve troops.

Ivor

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ivor,

The IAF was the Independent Air Force, which was a bomber (DH9 & DH9a) formation of the RAF that was deployed in France in 1918 to carry out daylight raids on the industrial areas of Germany. They were absed in Southern France close to the border of Southern Germany.

Bettencourt was an abandoned German arifield from where 110 Squadron were based from the end of August 1918 to the beginning of 1919. 87 Coy or part of were based with them. They were involved in labouring work around the airfield and in the rear of the American Sector which was not far away.

Ian

[Ivor Lee]

Ian,

Thanks for info on the IAF.

Do you know if they were at a place called ROUVRES? We have a record of 26 Other Ranks from 87 COmpany being sent there in September 1918 to support the RAF.

I have come across one man who died in 1920 where his unit is shown as 87th Coy. Independent Force, R.A.F Labour Corps but cannot identify the two 1918 men.

What still puzzles me is why these men were armed and sent to the Trenches. All I can think of is that they were being asked to hold what was considered a quiet part of the Front and they were short of a unit?????

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ivor,

At the time I was researching these IAF documents, I was trying to find out when my grandfather went on leave!! When I saw mention of the LC my ears pricked up and I only made brief notes as it wasn't my priority at the time. I will however have another look for more information this week.

Ian