Despatch rider?

[Northern Soul]

I have been given this photo and I am unsure as to whether it is WW1 or afterwards (I don't know much about motorcycles but it looks "late" to me).

When did soldiers stop wearing brass insigina on their shoulders and when did they stop wearing puttees?

Andy.

[T8HANTS]

He's sitting on a BSA M20, I think they started production in 1938. So just pre or early WW2.

G

[squirrel]

Don't know about the bike - but the RND on the number plate might be a clue or perhaps not. Service dress was replaced by battledress in the mid to late 1930's

[Rockdoc]

There's something odd about the photo. WD bikes had their "registration" number painted on the tank rather than on a front plate. I have no idea how military vehicles were numbered between the Wars but RMD 728 looks like a civilian registration to me but the bike looks to be painted khaki. There is no headlamp mask, either, so it's not during most of WW2.

Googling I came across a site for the WD M20 which says that it was initially tested by the Army in 1936 and rejected as unsuitable so I wonder whether this is a record shot of the tests? The Army did a lot of bike testing in the mid-1930s and there are files of the records at Kew.

Keith

[T8HANTS]

Pre war military vehicles did have civilian plates, also impressed ex-civilian vehicles retained their county numbers until they were all brought in under military census numbering, which for a motorcycle would have been Cxxxxxxx, which as Rocdoc states was painted on the tank.

It is possible that the machine is his personal motorcycle, and not the Army's, but the finish is too drab for a civilian BSA. No tank lining or BSA logo etc.

Despite its rejection during the original trials the BSA WD M20 became the mainstay motorcycle for military use. Although the bombing of Coventry did much to reduce Triumphs output which helped BSA.

Service dress was not replaced directly by battledress, and most Territorial units went to France wearing it along with 08 webbing, looking just like their fathers.

Gareth

[Muerrisch]

Looks a lot like TE Lawrence, but the bike is not Boanerges I fear.

[Rockdoc]

It certainly isn't a Brough Superior, Grumpy!

As I said, the Army tested many models from the major British manufacturers in the mid-1930s but they developed a rather skewed idea of what was best as a result. Engines were just starting to be fitted with overhead valves in any kind of quantity but the designers were still working their way through the concept. The early designs tended to have exposed valves and springs, which wore incredibly quickly when used cross-country. Sidevalve engines had the advantages that their moving parts were enclosed and could be replaced at the side of the road without taking the head off. Even when fully-enclosed overhead valves became the norm, the Army distrusted them so the Norton and BSA sidevalve bikes were ordered in large quantities while the lighter and sprightlier Matchless G3L and Triumph 3HW 350 singles were only bought in dribs and drabs. This blinkered view remained long after WW2, resulting in the Triumph TRW twin rather than anything based on the Tiger series.

The files at Kew make some absolutely fascinating reading, especially the minutes of the committee trying to standardise on designs for all road vehicles. They named the two-wheeler the Jeep Motorcycle but it never came to fruition, due in no small measure to the trenchant opposition of the factories to working together. I discovered the files while researching for the book I wrote with Derek Wylde for Haynes in the eighties called Postwar Matchless Singles.

Keith

[David B]

According to the M20 website the valanced rear mudguard was removed in October 1939, so the photo would probably predate that.

Suggest that the WD was more interested in the fact that a sidevalve motor was supposed to produce more torque which would have been

more useful plonking along rough tracks than sheer outright speed. The top speed of 60-65 mph would have been sufficient for war department

usage.

[squirrel]

Service dress was not replaced directly by battledress, and most Territorial units went to France wearing it along with 08 webbing, looking just like their fathers.

Gareth

Very interesting thread.............

Gareth,

If Service Dress was not replaced directly with Battle Dress what was worn in between the two?

[4thGordons]

Very interesting thread.............

Gareth,

If Service Dress was not replaced directly with Battle Dress what was worn in between the two?

I suspect "instantly" or "wholesale and immediately" was the intended meaning.

Certainly as noted, lots of early WWII photos show service dress in use (along with SMLEs) although 08 web is less common in my experience.

I know of nothing between the service dress and the battledress. I actually have a service dress (1922 pattern)with 1940 production date.

Chris

[daggers]

Number plate: "RMD" was an index mark issued by London NE according to a list issued by the AA some years ago.

D

[Waddell]

I notice there is no blackout cover on the headlight of the M20. Was there a date in the war when they became mandatory? The photo certainly looks early or just pre-second world war.

Scott.

Note- the old side-valves were pretty rugged and reliable. It wasn't only the WD who clung to them. Harley Davidson were reluctant to stop making them until a few decades later!

[Rockdoc]

The top speed of 60-65 mph would have been sufficient for war department usage.

You're the optimist, David! I doubt if they'd be getting much over 40 a lot of the time. Compression ratios were taken right down so the bikes would run on anything, including paraffin, and the carburettor diameters were reduced by a goodly chunk as well. My 1942 WD-G3L can't hit 60 and has a happy cruising speed of about 45 mph. The post-War versions with a head that breathes properly can do 70 and cruise at 60 comfortably.

It's just a pity that the brakes are utterly useless.

Keith

[T8HANTS]

Still rebuilding my Triumph 3HW, so I can't tell you what that goes like.

Like a pre-war Tiger 80 would be nice.

Gareth

[squirrel]

I suspect "instantly" or "wholesale and immediately" was the intended meaning.

Certainly as noted, lots of early WWII photos show service dress in use (along with SMLEs) although 08 web is less common in my experience.

I know of nothing between the service dress and the battledress. I actually have a service dress (1922 pattern)with 1940 production date.

Chris

There I go again reading what was written and not what was apparently intended. Thanks Chris.

[Rockdoc]

Gareth. from what I remember of the files at Kew, the Army ordered entire batches of BSA and Norton side-vales but always split a batch between Plumstead and Coventry and ordered fewer batches like that anyway. The greatest shame was the loss of the Triumph twin in the fire-bombing. That would have been infinitely better than any other bike available but they factory lost everything to do with it.

Keith

[David B]

My first ride on a bike was as pillion on a surplus M20, god that pillion was hard - just a bit of steel tubing, backside looked like a griddle for days. However

unless the speedo was highly inaccurate we were doing around the 60 mph mark, mind you this was on better roads that a normal army Dr would be

riding on.

David

[rewdco]

I know that this is an old thread, but I came across this one while I was searching for something else.

The BSA in the picture can be dated pretty accurately. The torpedo style Lucas MT1130 rear light was introduced in the autumn of 1939. The use of civilian numberplates stopped in September 1939. This BSA has both, so must have been built around September 1939. A lot of these bikes were sent to France during the phone war, and ended up in the German Army, after the Dunkirk retreat.

Around that time the military vehicles had a civilian registration number (always from a Londen C.C. series), and a military census number. On a 1939 motorcycle, the census number was only applied on the left hand side of the petrol tank. White letters on a black rectangle, soon to be replaced by white letters on the khaki background. In the above picture we only see the RHS, so that's why we don't see a census number. Vehicles registered in 1939 had a census number starting with 39..., motorcycles had a C prefix. I've added some other examples...

Jan

[kenf48]

A  reminder.

The  GWF is concerned with the Great War Period The original question was answered in 2009 so locking this.