Possible suicide

[Andrew Hesketh]

I have been contacted by someone who believes that a relative may have committed suicide during the war, after believing for many years that this soldier died on the Somme. He is not on SDGW or CWGC.

Would confirmed suicides be recorded on either database?

What were the consequences of a man in uniform having committed suicide e.g. court of enquiry?

Would surviving service records confirm suicide?

Any comments would be welcome. Thanks.

[Desmond7]

I have several instances where men were killed by accidental discharges from other soldiers' weapons. This news seems to have been passed on to their families as a matter of practice even though it must have added to their trauma because 'their' son/husband etc. was a 'purposeless' victim of the war.

I assume it would have been much easier in administrative terms just to put down 'killed in front line on such and such a date' - but they meticulously give details of how the accident occurred.

Would it not be logical for the system to be equally dogmatic on the question of suicide? And, if this person was a member of a Pals btn. etc the 'true' story would surely have got back somehow?

As for acceptance of suicides for CWGC status. Can't help but that guy Terry probably could.

Des

[paul guthrie]

Dying on active service or from service related cause before the cut off date was all it took, after all SAD are recognized by CWGC w/o distinction.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Des, Paul,

Thanks for that. I'm being a bit cagey about the circumstances as it could have a catastrophic effect on the present day family.

Paul, Could suicide be regarded as 'dying on active service or from service related cause'?

[paul guthrie]

Des, Paul,

Thanks for that. I'm being a bit cagey about the circumstances as it could have a catastrophic effect on the present day family.

Paul, Could suicide be regarded as 'dying on active service or from service related cause'?

I am sure Terry Denham will pipe in, but I say definitely while on active service, w/o question.

You know there was much speculation that Captain Edward Brittain, Vera's brother was a suicide, stood up & got shot deliberately because he suspected of homosexual activity, a crime then. Not a proven suicide of course. He is buried in a beautiful cemetery on the Asiago Plateau, a little above actuall, I have been there.

And while he was not British, Alexander McClintock - see below & reprint of his book is available & very good- is recognized on the state of Kentucky & Fayette County Memorials and was given a military funeral despite being a suicide and AWOL at time of death.

[Guest Pete Wood]

I know of a few cases of soldiers who took their own lives. In SDGW they are usually recorded as 'Died' instead of accidentally killed, or died of wounds etc.

[Desmond7]

I tend to agree with Paul - just look at the men who died in training of illness etc. Lots of them on the CWGC.

For e.g.

Lance-corporal John Bowden

MUCH regret is felt in the 12th Btn. R.I. Rifles at the death of L.cpl. John Bowden, of Ballymena, which took place on Thursday morning, April 1, at the Newtownards Camp.

Ballymena Observer, April 9, 1915

[Terry Denham]

Suicide would qualify for CWGC status provided the death was to a serving Commonwealth serviceman/woman between the qualifying dates. There are hundreds of such unfortunate examples in the CWGC database.

The cause of death is totally immaterial in the granting of War Grave status to serving Commonwealth military personnel - as is location.

All deaths which qualify can be divided into the following six categories -

1) Killed in action

2) Died of wounds

3) Died of illness

4) Died in accident

5) Died through homicide or suicide

6) Died through judicial execution

Following Paul's point... Someone who was AWOL at their death would qualify for War Grave status but someone who was a declared deserter would not - unless they had just been recaptured when they would!

[Jon Miller]

How many of the above categories would be covered by the term 'died' as quoted by RT? I have come across that, am I to presume that suicide is the likeliest cause in that case?

[Andrew Hesketh]

Thankyou to everyone who has contributed above. This has been most illuminating.

Jon, the term 'died' in SDGW would cover points 3, 4 and 5 on Terry's list (unsure about 6), though in the vast majority of cases the likelihood is point 3. However, I have unearthed one anomaly where about 40 men of one battalion 'died' on a day when they were in action and, according to war diary, were killed or missing. I presume from that therefore that on some occasions 'died' could mean that the precise cause of death could not be established.

Thanks again chaps.

[Terry Denham]

The term 'Died' would cover points 3-6.

However, do not rely on the entries in SDGW. They are not always accurate and you will often find errors as Andrew points out. The 'theatre' of their death is also sometimes wrong.

[Brigantian]

Andrew

His death certificate might help, if you could locate it.

If he committed suicide in the UK a Coroner’s inquest should have been held. The finding of an inquest is usually entered on the death certificate and may be informative. Depending on the area the Coroner’s records might survive and/or the inquest may well have been reported in a local newspaper.

Regards

Mark

[Andrew Hesketh]

Mark - good points, thanks.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Medal Roll Pages will sometimes confirm "Suicide",There is @ least one on the 1914~1915 Star Roll of the 1/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment,this poor chap drowned himself,it is well documented in the contemporary local press also.

[Andrew P]

The Red Cross forms are also sometimes quite useful in confirming suicide.

http://www.awm.gov.au/database/1drl428_dis...=13&submit.y=10

If the link doesn't work got to

http://www.awm.gov.au

Biographical database - Red Cross Missing forms - and type in Compton.

He was in the 5th Light Horse

[perce620]

With respect to this thread , a soldier I researched in the Border regt commited suicide by drowning himself and this was reported in the local paper,. This man still had a full military funeral and headstone.(He had previously served overseas before being posted back to the Garrison unit and possibly was suffering from PTSD the paper doesnt quite word it like that but thats the impression given)

[BMoorhouse]

"Died" also seems to cover prisoners of war, even where it was believed that the person died of wounds, in my experience. Perhaps they did not trust the 'dastardly hun' to give an accurate account of a prisoner's death?

Brendon.

[healdav]

Suicide was a crime in those days and I think that their property was liable to confiscation, so the Coroners and others, presumably, went out of their way to record an open verdict or 'found drowned' or whatever, where there was the slightest doubt. They could also use, 'whilst the balance of the mind was distrubed' - in other words they were not responsible for their actions.

It was also the case that up into the 1960s burial in an Catholic cemetery (not sure when it stopped for Parich cemeteries) was denied to suicides. Goodness knows what was supposed to be done with the body, but there it is.

Obviously this would nt apply to CWGC cemeteries, but i would have thought that they would also have been very wary of using the bald term 'suicide' as would the Unit to which the person belonged. It was too full of awkward questions and consequences.

[Andrew Hesketh]

May I thank everyone for their comments. This has proved an interesting thread.

[Muerrisch]

medal roll is the place to go: "death in suspicious circumstances" "killed by lightning", "suspected suicide" all seen.