Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 This is not crucial to the historiography of the Great War, but since (the death of) any individual soldier is as important as anything else... Last week I was contacted by a gentleman (UK) who assumed I could tell him more about the exact place where his greatgrandfather (C. Woods, missing, Tyne Cot Cem. Memorial)) was buried near Ypres. However, this turned out to be a misunderstanding. But there were some aspects of the document he based himself on, that I found very puzzling. And it is with regard to some 'technical' details that I would like to have some Forum members' opinions, on behalf of Mr Edward Keenan (who gave me the permission to put the postcard below on the Forum). 1. First of all I have some problems with the text on the postcard. This is what I can read. Can anyone correct me where necessary, and fill in the blanks ? To Mrs. C. Woods 59 Whistler St Drayton Park Highbury London N° 5 Dear Madam, I only want to let you know that I found your husband C.W. Woods. He got a very serious shoot through his stomach. I have buried him in Flanders. My deepest regard for you and your children. I got myself relation (?) still in ........... [Engeland ???] and I never know if I see them ever again. Hoping you get this letter however. Yours truly Fred. Rose .......... ....... Langstr. (?) 658 (?) Hannover (Germany) There are two other text fragments, in both top corners, written upside down, but I will post them again in a following posting. This is what they say : I have found your husband in Nov. 1917 by Paschendaele Flanders My present Adr. [Address] : Uoffz. Rose Fred. R.I.R. [Reserve Infanterie Regiment] 77 2. Komp. .... Btl. (?) [bataillon] ................ (Hannover) Mr Keenan assumes that his greatgrandfather Pte C.W. Woods 2/KOYLI was sent out after the 3rd Battle of Ypres at Paschendaele to retrieve the wounded, and was hit by a sniper or a stray mortar shell, and was buried by "a German medic". However, I have some questions / doubts, and I would like to hear some other Forum members' opinions. 1. The postcard is signed by a Fred(.) Rose. This can be both a German and an English name ? 2. It's not easy for me (non-native speaker) to judge the language. To me it does not sound or look like perfect English (shoot / relation / if I see them) but on the other hand it sounds good enough to give the impression that it was written by an Englishman, or if not, by a German whose English was better than average. (Or maybe he originally was from Engeland, and still has relatives there ?) Am I right ? 3. Is the fact that the handwriting is normal, and not that typical cryptic German handwriting an indication that Fred Rose indeed was not German ? 4. OK, the address says Uoffz. Rose, RIR 77, etc. Is this enough to say : there is no doubt, Fred Rose is German, no doubt about that ? It looks like that, yet ... (An acquaintance suggested : maybe he was a POW ?) 5. Is there anything in the text suggesting when the card was written ? After the war ? 1918 ? Later ? 6. As to being killed by a sniper or a mortar shell when retrieving the wounded ... C. Woods died 25 Nov 1917. This indeed was after Third Ypres (and after Passchendaele). We know that after 10 Nov. 1917 (last day of Passchendaele) the fighting may have been over officially (Third Ypres), but not in practice. And indeed on that day, SDGW gives 21 fatal casualties in 2/KOYLI. So there may have been 'something'. A Forum member has already offered me to have a look in : Bond, 'The King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry' (this source not in Ypres), but who knows, someone may have the 2/KOYLI War diaries of that date ? Answering all my questions would be time-consuming, I am aware of that, but enlightening one or two of them maybe ? I'm sure Mr Keenan will appreciate. Thanks for having enough patience to read this down to the end. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 And as I do not want you to turn your monitors upside down ... This is the upper part of the postcard, but upside down, to make it more readable. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Hi Aurel London No. 5 should be London N 5. It is the WW1 post code, where N means North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Really interesting! I think this one is beyond even the amazing pals but hope I am wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Thanks, RT and Paul. Also for making it look like a challenge. Let's just wait and see if the "amazing pals" can resist, and are willing to take up the gauntlet. But between the two of us : this probably will be beyond them... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 I think the writer of the postcard was probably not English. First of all, there is, as Aurel had said, some slightly "wrong" English such as the word "shoot" and the sentence, "I never know if I see them ever again."Also, when writing "1917" the writer has written the figure "1" in the continental way, starting with an upstroke so that it looks like an upside-down "V" and also written the continental version of "7" with a cross through it. He also used the phrase "I have found your husband.... by Passchendaele" which reminds me of the way the sentence would be contructed in German. An Englishman would have written "I found your husband..........." and might not have used "by" to mean "near to" as in German. What do others think? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 And another thought! The writer may not have been named "Fred." He may have had any name which was abbreviated to Fred. in a signature. For example, my own name "Thomas" was often abbreviated to "Thos." in signatures in those days, and "James" was similarly abbreviated to "Jas." There was always a full-stop to show the abbreviation, and there is one in the signature on the postcard. I've certainly seen the name "Frederick" signed as "Fred." Thos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Aurel Purely speculation but to look at your first 3 questions. 1) Yes, Fred. Rose can be an English or German name. Rose is a common surname in Germany. Many genealogy sites contain entries from "ROSE" families trying to trace their German roots. 2) The language suggests somebody who may have been a native English speaker but who has not spoken the language for a long time. Perhaps Fred was educated in England and later moved to Germany? 3) Also the writing is, to me, very English in style. Put simply, it can be easily read by an Englishman, whereas German script of the day would have been difficult to read. So I would suggest that possibly Fred is English by birth but moved to Germany in later life. It's a pity we don't know more about him. There are too many candidates on the 1901 census to look at every one without more information. An intriguing tale. Regards Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Thanks, 'Thos.' and Stephen. I had been thinking along the same lines. (And had been a bit sceptical about the "by Passchendaele" too. Yet I had not paid attention to the continental way of writing the figures.) Stephen, to me too it seemed that F.R. may have been born (or had his roots) in Britain, and later left for Germany, where he joined the army. And fought the British army... Adds a very human (and sad) dimension to it all. Should other members have other additional ideas, they are welcome. (Maybe even about the practice of German soldiers (medics ?) burying British, or vice versa.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest michaelv Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Tom, I aggree that he was a German (living in Springe am Deister, see below) with relatives in "Engeland", who was able to write in english language. "...got myself relation still in ........... [Engeland ???] ..." Aurel, Here are some additions that might be of interest: ----- Fred. Rose .......... ....... = Springe am Deister [springe near Deister] Langstr. 658 (?) Hannover (Germany) ------ Springe is a town southwest of Hannover and west of Hildesheim (www.springe.de). The "Deister" is a mountain in Niedersachsen....... near Springe. This was the postal address of Fred Rose where his family lived and may be he hoped to get an answer from Mrs. Woods someday. Today, you find telephone numbers of several people with the name "Rose" in Springe am Deister. If you like, I can mail them to you, so you can call them and ask, which one is the ancestor of Fred Rose ------ My present Adr. [Address] : Uoffz. Rose Fred. R.I.R. [Reserve Infanterie Regiment] 77 2. Komp. .... Btl. = Ers. Batl. [Ersatz Bataillon] ................ = Hildesheim (Hannover) ------- His present address was the Ersatz Bataillon of the R.I.R. 77 in Hildesheim. You ask, when the card was written. In my opinion there are two possibilities. 1. It was written in late 1917 or early 1918, just a few weeks after he arrived from Flanders (may be wounded?), beeing prepared for the front again. 2. Shorty after 11.11.1918, staying for a last time in Hildesheim before beeing released from the army. I hope this helps a little bit. Sorry about my english, which is even worse than Mr. Rose`s. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Michael, Great ! This all completes the jigsaw puzzle picture ! As to the phone numbers : why not ? I will contact you off Forum. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 There is only 1 problem Aurel (by the way happy birthday). If you are almost sure where he was buried. There are new problems. Is he already found + reburied as "Know unto god"? Is his grave still there (april 1918 was a hell of a fight too) How will you identify? So that's why i ask this question: What will be the use of all your efforts? It is nice to do it, but has it any meaning? i am just wondering about it... greets, kristof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 I think it has lots of meaning. The possibility of tracing the relatives of Fred. Rose is amazing. Mr. Keenan might learn something about the death and burial of his great grandfather. Up until today, perhaps Mr. Keenan was the only person who knew the name of Pte. C. Woods. By the end of today hundreds of people will know his name and remember him. Fred. Rose too. That is meaning enough, I think. In addition there are the possibilities. It's possible that when Fred. Rose found him, Pte. Woods was still alive. Fred. Rose could speak English. Suppose he spoke to Pte. Woods, and promised to write that postcard? What if Mrs. Woods replied, and the reply still exists somewhere in Springe am Deister? Who knows what might be discovered? I'm only standing on the sidelines, but the possibilities for Remembrance are very exciting indeed. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest michaelv Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Hello, the first name of Mr. Rose is not getting out of my mind In the first photo it really looks like "Fred." to me, but in the small one, what about "Friedr." = Friedrich = Frederick = Fred. ? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 If you are almost sure where he was buried. There are new problems. Is he already found + reburied as "Know unto god"? Is his grave still there (april 1918 was a hell of a fight too) How will you identify? So that's why i ask this question: What will be the use of all your efforts? Kristof, I'm afraid you must have misunderstood my initial posting. I certainly am not "almost sure" where C. Woods was buried. As a matter of fact : I haven't the slightest idea. And neither has anybody else. (Except "by Passchendaele Flanders"). The misunderstanding that I referred to in my posting was that the person who contacted me thought that, based on the postcard, it was possible to find the exact location. Which is not true. (Maybe he mistook the address on the postcard for the address where C. Woods was buried.) So, whether C. Woods has already been found and reburied ... Whether his grave is still there ... I do not know at all. How, if found somehow or some time, he will be identified ? No idea. (Yet, the person who contacted me offered a DNA sample if desirable.) But these questions are totally irrelevant. There is no intention to go and find the remains of the fallen soldier "by Passchendaele". We wouldn't know where to start. Besides this is impossible for all sorts of other practical and other reasons either. What will be the use of my efforts ? Not to find the fallen soldier, just to provide Mr Keenan with additional information about his greatgrandad and about what happened in November 1917, and about who may have buried his C. Woods. This is what I promised him in our contact. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 I think it has lots of meaning. The possibility of tracing the relatives of Fred. Rose is amazing. Mr. Keenan might learn something about the death and burial of his great grandfather. Up until today, perhaps Mr. Keenan was the only person who knew the name of Pte. C. Woods. By the end of today hundreds of people will know his name and remember him. Fred. Rose too. (...) Tom, I couldn't express it better myself. And this is indeed what it is all about. If there is one thing that almost haunts my mind, it's the thought that in the years after the Great War, so many people in the UK, France, Flanders, Germany etc. must have lived with the unanswerable question : What happened to my husband, father, uncle, ...? Knowing that there probably never would be an answer. So receiving an email from a man in the UK, who after all these years is still wondering about his greatgrandfather (greatgrandfather !), and who is hoping that one day the remains (of a man who he has probably never known) will be found ... well, I found that touching. I know that I (or we, the Forum members) will never be able to solve the mystery and answer the questions you asked in you posting, but just helping him and motivating him (without creating false hopes of course) is very, well ... motivating for all of us, isn't it ? I have spent hours and hours and hours trying to find relatives or descendants of a men who lost a spoon or a razor in the Ypres Salient (in all cases but one unsuccessfully I'm sad to say), but this is something that has to be done. (Even if a greatgranddaughter might say : I don't want that filthy rusty piece of junk ;-) I have met many visitors in the Salient, and I think I can say I understand how important it is for descendants (and how gratifying for me) to show them where a great uncle died near the Kemmelbeek in Elverdinge, or a grandfather near the Steenbeek in Langemark. This largely makes up for the few hours it takes of my time. That's why I hope that I will be able to find something more about where C. Woods died (Reg. History, War diaries ?) so that I can send a photo of the location or so to Mr Keenan. I'll stop this reply now, for I do realize that most of my postings are far too long (at the risk of not being read). And also because my email machine tells me that an e-mail has just come in from ... Mr Keenan and from the Discussion Forum about C. Woods ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 Aurel, can there still be a trustfull source of information founded? I really doubt that, but i hope so. If you are maybe very lucky you will find a dairy of Herr Rose. And maybe you find some info in it. But to be realistic i think the best thing you can find is a story... It is hard after more than 80 years finding a source... best of luck, kristof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Chavasse Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 This post has intrigued me because i know Whistler street very well. I used to walk through it to get to my primary school which was Drayton Park Infants. We had a dinner lady there called Mrs Woods, who looked about 50 ( to our young eyes anyway). This was in 1968. And she lived in.......Whistler Street! I don't know the number, but it is possible she was a relative. She could even be Mr Keenan's granny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest naneek Posted 4 May , 2004 Share Posted 4 May , 2004 I would like to thank Mr Sercu for his time and his help in this matter,it is greatly appreciated, i know he is a very busy man. my uncle who gave me a copy of the post card when we started to do a family tree as asked me to say thakyou as well When we tried to read the card we thought that it said burried near woods which we took to be poloygon woods,but now we know this is in correct. Also as far as we know caroline woods did not reply but that is not to say she did not and we are not sure weather fred rose did, all of caroline and charles woods children are dead only the grandchildren are alive and they have no record of any letters. I would also like to thank the forum for all the replys so far this is more info/history on my great granfather I have just spoken to my uncle and he says the only woods that could have been a dinner lady who lived in whistler street was my great aunt dolly anyway thankyou all for your time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 May , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2004 And I have just received the scanned page of the KOYLI Reg. History from Forum member Andy. Not much detail in it, but now we know that your greatgrandfather must have fallen a mile or so north of Passendale, between Passendale and Westrozebeke, in what can be called "normal trench warfare". But I will forward the page to you right away, off Forum. Aurel (And I'm not that busy, for I spent more than half of the afternoon on the Forum !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest naneek Posted 5 May , 2004 Share Posted 5 May , 2004 here is an email i got last year when making enquiries about my grandfather 2nd KOYLI were in 32nd Division and were not involved in 3rd Ypres which ended on 10th November 1917. They were brought in afterwards and went into the line to relieve the battered survivors. C W Woods died on 25th November 1917 and was possibly a trench warfare casualty, shellfire, snipers, gas. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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