Proof reading

[connaughtranger]

What on earth has happened to the use of proof readers in new publications!? I recently read a work in which virtually all the French town and village place names were incorrectly spelt, sometimes the correct and incorrect spelling appearing on the same page; there were also occasional grammatical errors and other spelling mistakes. Such a lack of care for detail can reflect badly on the author and cheapen his/her hard work, the finger of blame often being pointed towards the innocent.

I'll not name the work or author since he is probably entirely blameless, but the publisher is Spellmount!!

I know there are a lot of authors on this Forum, I wonder how much input they have once their work is handed over.

[Terry_Reeves]

I think you will find the author is responsible for his/ her work in this respect.

TR

[Moonraker]

Ouch! And I've just noticed a redundant comma in a book I self-published 11 years ago. I'd checked the text several times before getting it printed, but was conscious that I was over-familiar with what I'd written. Ideally I should have let it hibernate for several months before returning to it with a fresh eye and mind.

It is not the proof-reader's main responsibility to check for the errors cited by ConnaughtRanger. These should have been spotted by the editor, who will give the author's text a final polish (perhaps after suggesting major changes, such as the development of a theme). Traditionally the edited text is then passed to the printer, who will set it as it is written and edited; the proof-reader will then check that this has been done accurately, perhaps highlighting the occasional infelicity. Today, of course, some publishers will accept the author's work electronically; this should still be edited. In theory, the original text should be reproduced faithfully, obviating the need for proof-reading but still requiring the author to check a proof to ensure gremlins have not been at play.

Sadly, editing is not something that all publishers pay much attention to nowadays. Very, very few authors' work will not benefit from an expert second opinion.

Moonraker

[MartinWills]

I think you will find the author is responsible for his/ her work in this respect.

TR

This is not always the case.

[Steven Broomfield]

Do they still have proof readers? Looking at modern publications it would seem to me that the spell checker has taken over the world.

Editing, too, seems a lost art; I have read several books recently in which the loss of a hundred pages would have been an improvement. Going off at a tangent, films suffer the same problem: half an hour pruned from some movies would improve them no end - maybe the current trend for "The bigger the better" is to blame.

[centurion]

Its an old problem. One of Henry James' novels was published with two chapters in the wrong order. Such was the nature of his convoluted plotting that nobody noticed for years after many editions

[Steven Broomfield]

I have to confess I've always found the charm of Henry James resistable.

[centurion]

I have to confess I've always found the charm of Henry James resistable.

One of his contemporaries did say that he was "the sweetest old lady you could hope to meet!"

[David B]

Steven,

Do you mean half an hour taken from a 29 minute film ?

[Steven Broomfield]

If it involves Adam Sandler, by all means.

[truthergw]

As far as newspapers are concerned, proof reading was done by specially trained men who had a basic education in a time when spelling a word and punctuating a sentence correctly was considered to be important. These men were not particularly well paid compared to their colleagues in the printing trade. Much has changed. A generation or more of teachers who do not give much importance to spelling and to whom syntax is an old fashioned idea. A book which recommends the judicious insertion of commas can become a best seller, mainly on account of its novelty value. The printing trade is completely changed. No hot type now. No linotype operators. No longer time for a proof reader to take a place in the chain between editor and printing press. A man with the relevant skill and knowledge would likely be university educated. His salary commensurate. I dare say some of the academic press retain proof readers but computerisation of the process has replaced the man and his knowledge with a word list. Cheap ' print on demand' books are now so bad that they are barely fit for purpose. A note on the frontispiece seems to make them legal. Who would bother to mount a challenge? The only answer seems to be caveat emptor.

[Staffsyeoman]

Automated proof checking must shoulder some of the blame.. Here's a doozy: in Andrew Roberts' The Storm of War it says that the Dunkirk perimeter in May 1940 extended from Gravelines to... Bruges. Quite. Wrong country, wrong direction... Two lines later it says Bourges - which is the right answer....

[Rockdoc]

Proof reading is a minefield for any author, familiarity meaning that the text is read as intended not as it actually is on the page. I also think that it's important someone who's had nothing to do with the work reads it in the latter stages to make sure that the story flows and that the information is balanced. My PhD thesis came back from a friend with "too terse", "too verbose" and suchlike all over it. He was absolutely right and the submitted version was infinitely better for his review. If this isn't happening in the publishing world then it's a great shame, IMO.

Keith

[Moonraker]

A few years ago, a company was offering a proof-reading "course", the adverts for which included some deliberate and very basic "typos" (typographical errors), just to show how easy it all was. I often wondered how many of those who completed the course and received a "certificate" found any work.

I wonder how many books have their text set electronically from a CD supplied by the author, so cutting out the compositor? Most?

Moonraker

[centurion]

When I was first in Management consulting any major report or proposal was proof read and edited by at least three people, sometimes four. I can remember one for the Inland Revenue, a weighty tome both in volume, the gravity of its findings and the prospect of further work - four of us, two consultants, a senior manager and a senior partner ( who used to boast that he'd never let a split infinitive out of the office) were up all night doing this exercise with relays of word processing staff. Come morning and the extensively checked and re checked document was bound and ready to be taken round by hand to Somerset House - I fortunately glanced at the beautifully produced cover which said "Report to the Iland Revenue!"

[truthergw]

As ennywun who has ever had to write out an essay will know, you see what you meant to write.

[Pete1052]

Proofreading and the compiling of indexes appear to be two areas in which book publishers now economize. The appearance of the printed page also seems to have lost much of its aesthetic appeal in the transition from hot type to electronic publishing. The spelling of place names would seem to me to be the responsibility of authors, since few editors of books on military history would have the time or inclination to follow the progress of campaigns on maps.

During my dad's newspaper career spelling a person's name wrong could get a person fired if it happened too often. One of dad's rules of thumb as a journalist on daily newspapers was to avoid superlatives--the earliest, the latest, largest, smallest, etc--because someone out there will probably prove you to be wrong a couple of days later in a letter to the editor.

[Dragon]

I offer you this screen grab from a message forum I used to use. The users, who were all adults, were discussing work you could do from home. Proofreading was a popular suggestion.

(I have my original image - this hasn't been tampered with. These aren't their real names.)

Gwyn

[SiegeGunner]

I find that I've more or less given up caring. At least trying to figure out what ignorami and illiterati meant to say in published material helps occupy some of the time I used to spend working as an editor and proofreader ...

[Dragon]

I used to think I'd like to be a copy-editor or proofreader when I grew up. Having recently proffed proofed someone's undergraduate dissertation for her and almost gone nuts with the quality of text that her supervisor had let through, I realise I'd have just become a grumpy old git who wrote green ink letters to the Telegraph attributing the decline of literacy among the young to the fact the English teachers no longer wear gowns and ties. Or one of those who sits listening to Radio Four for hours and then sends the Beeb a list of all the split infinitives used during my watch.

I don't think I care as much as I used to, but I can't help being aware of mistakes because the visual appearance of a wrong word or punctuation mark jars with my senses. I don't know how to explain it, but it seems visual rather than just knowing how to spell.

[Rockdoc]

Gwyn, not all supervisors care. My PhD supervisor didn't read one word of mine and I had to rely on the goodwill of other people to help me produce it. Nor do many of them have a high quality of English-language skills but it's mostly down to the fact that teaching undergraduates doesn't count for anything. Only the quality and frequency of research output matters since the research review, which takes place every three years or so, governs the amount of funding a department can call on from external bodies, such as the Research Councils. Overhead charges on the grants mean that research supports teaching, by funding support staff, laboratories and so on, because undergraduate funding for UK students doesn't come close to the true costs. Until it does - and there's a can of worms - teaching will be a poor relation at universities.

Keith

[Dragon]

Oh, I agree. But this supervisor had seen the dissertation at various stages and just ignored glaring mistakes. I'd have thought that even if your role isn't copy-editing students' work, you ought to tell them that text speak just isn't appropriate!

When my spouse did his thesis, his supervisors took an active interest in technical accuracy and style as well as content. A thesis is publicly available and becomes a reference source; poor writing reflects badly on the university. Obviously content is of prime importance, but just as they were not going to award to a beautifully written but shallow thesis, equally they would not rate highly a competent but badly written one.

Especially when a degree is in a subject area where good communication is important, excellent writing ability is a skill that the tutors have to develop in their students. This applies particularly to a degree such as an MBA. And if a thesis is thirty or more thousand words, then it has to be reasonably enjoyable to read.

I hated proofing his thesis, but it made the point to me that a level of unfamiliarity with the subject is quite an advantage when noticing lack of clarity or typos.

[Rockdoc]

Especially when a degree is in a subject area where good communication is important, excellent writing ability is a skill that the tutors have to develop in their students. This applies particularly to a degree such as an MBA. And if a thesis is thirty or more thousand words, then it has to be reasonably enjoyable to read.

You're preaching to the converted, Gwyn. It was one of the proudest moments of my life when the examiners at my viva voce said that mine had been one of the most enjoyable reads they'd had for years. I had read some theses that seemed to be written to hide the work done. In one case it most definitely had been because when I forced my way through the pages and pages of turgid and difficult prose in one chapter I found it could have been summed up in two sentences: I tried this. It didn't work.

I put in both my successes and failures but labelled them clearly. I believe that a thesis - an engineering or science one at any rate - should tell of the journey from the early casting-about for the right theme to follow down to the conclusion. Too many appear to have never failed at anything, to have run on rails from start to finish. No matter how good the work, that undermined it for me because I've never yet found a researcher who never had a problem, a set-back or an outright disaster.

I hated proofing his thesis, but it made the point to me that a level of unfamiliarity with the subject is quite an advantage when noticing lack of clarity or typos.

Ruth read my MSc thesis with the same advantage/disadvantage. She couldn't do anything about the technical errors but she spotted examples of poor English. It all helps.

Keith

[pjjobson]

My Publisher got me to proof read my own book. Big mistake as the references to Sherman OP Tanks is actually completely out of sequence. You can't proof read your own material, you just make the same mistake over again.

Phil

[dfaulder]

I am not sure that it is the job of postgraduate supervisors to proof-read the work of their students. It is their job to point out if there are problems and to suggest ways in which they might be addressed. I find one very effective approach is to suggest that the student asks someone (with good English) to read the thesis to them; then as the student listens he or she marks a copy wherever the reader struggles.

One of the problems that I often read about is where the student's basic language skills (never mind writing skills) are inadequate. This is often the case where English is a Second Language; in some cases the student can be very sensitive to this type of criticism. They have got to the final stage of their degree without complaint; how dare some jumped up supervisor criticise them - they must be prejudiced. And all Universities dread academic appeals and subsequent litigation!

David