dobbin Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Having just read this book and having got the distinct impression that the author A J Smithers seems a touch enamoured of Smith Dorrien I wonder if others knowing more about this man than I, can comment please. Perhaps some learned person could rcommend some further reading as I feel I want to get a balanced view of the Le Cateau question. Smithers may be right about French I know he is not the only person to feel as he does but his comments at time seem to lack the balanced argument that is required. His personal comments about French's obvious rotund figure and other things he disliked about him seem uneccesary and dont I feel make the argument stronger but cast doubt in the reader's mind which is not justified. I want to know whether Smith Dorrien's actions did have the effect Smithers claims. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Sir John French's own "1914" is a good counterpoint. It is flawed by the man's seething resentment at what happened to him so you have to read between the lines, but it is worth doing so. The first volume of the Official History would also be worth a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 of course, if the Zulus had been a bit quicker off the mark 1879 Isandhwana, we might have been rolled over at Mons/le Cateau and lost the war and speaking in fairly good German now. Discuss Natürlich, wenn der Zulus war ein bisschen schneller aus den Startlöchern 1879 Isandhwana, wir könnten über gerollt in Mons / Le Cateau und den Krieg verloren und Sprechen in ziemlich gutem Deutsch jetzt. Diskutieren with apologies to our German friends ...... I do try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 S-D has a good auto-biography and there is " Gentlemen, We will stand and fight", Antony Bird. about Le Cateau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 As 'Colonel of the Regiment' Notts & Derby Regiment he can do no wrong (or could even). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 The part of Smith-Dorrien's own memoirs dealing with Mons and Le Cateau can be read online at: http://www.richthofen.com/smith-dorrien/dorrien24a.htm Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 among my treasures is a 'Spy' original water-coloured cartoon of S-D. Peanuts in 1960, a small fortune now. Unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Sheffield City Library has a copy (in reference, but they will loan it out), which I read the other day. Good general biography, I thought, but amazed that they are on offer at Abebooks for over £80. There was little in it that can't be had from other, more accessible, sources. Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 24 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Sir John French's own "1914" is a good counterpoint. It is flawed by the man's seething resentment at what happened to him so you have to read between the lines, but it is worth doing so. The first volume of the Official History would also be worth a look. Thank you Chris I have located a library copy which I will arrange to call in and read as its not on loan. thanks very much for the advice. I am visiting Le Cateau in September so I have time to finish reading the work. Colin .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 24 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2010 S-D has a good auto-biography and there is " Gentlemen, We will stand and fight", Antony Bird. about Le Cateau. Thank you Truthgrw I have seen the book on Amazon. Pity my library does noy seem to have a copy so I will have to defer to Amazon. I appreciate the help,thanks Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 24 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2010 The part of Smith-Dorrien's own memoirs dealing with Mons and Le Cateau can be read online at: http://www.richthofen.com/smith-dorrien/dorrien24a.htm Cheers-salesie. Thanks Salesie for the link I am well into it already Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 24 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Sir John French's own "1914" is a good counterpoint. It is flawed by the man's seething resentment at what happened to him so you have to read between the lines, but it is worth doing so. The first volume of the Official History would also be worth a look. Chris thanks re the Official War history its a pity the volume in question is "missing from the stack" in my County Library so I must ask around, Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 24 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Thank you to everyone else for your replies Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRONNO Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Thank you to everyone else for your replies Colin Well said Grumpy and Steve Morse, S.D. saved our bacon and if you want an unbiased opinion contact the Regimental Museum and ask for the Archivist. www.wfrmuseum.org.uk or rhqwfr-nottm@lineone.net BRONNO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 A transcript of Volume 1 of the OH has been free online for some while. I'm afraid I don't have time right now to find it, but I am sure someone will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 Well said Grumpy and Steve Morse, S.D. saved our bacon and if you want an unbiased opinion contact the Regimental Museum and ask for the Archivist. www.wfrmuseum.org.uk or rhqwfr-nottm@lineone.net BRONNO. At one stage c. 1980 I nearly lived in the Museum. Curator was, if memory serves, a Major Creamer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 A transcript of Volume 1 of the OH has been free online for some while.I had a good look for it last night but no luck. I wonder if the site has been pulled? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 When Jack Sheldon and I were writing Le Cateau 1914 for the Battleground Europe series I think I would be right in saying that from all that we saw from both the British and German sources that there was really not much option but to fight at Le Cateau, especially if one considers what he knew of the situation then. In many respects I think his performance was at least notable, especially given that the command was thrust on him at such short notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 Robert The 2 1914 volumes are Here - Aug/Oct and Here - Oct/Nov. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 When Jack Sheldon and I were writing Le Cateau 1914 for the Battleground Europe series I think I would be right in saying that from all that we saw from both the British and German sources that there was really not much option but to fight at Le Cateau, especially if one considers what he knew of the situation then. In many respects I think his performance was at least notable, especially given that the command was thrust on him at such short notice. This is not really the thread to start discussing S-D or Le Cateau, these already exist but I think you have put your finger on the one point we find it hardest to imagine, the almost complete lack of communication or intelligence to help a commander in his appreciation of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Wilson Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 The alternative history, the what if scenario leads me to conclude there are those who mis-judged Smith-Dorrien in 1914-15. When the book The Man Who Disobeyed was published in 1970 it demonstrated that jealously and spite led to his downfall. Had Smith-Dorrien's Army not held the line at Le Cateau and retired in the way that it did then a gap might well have been created, thus potentially enabling the Germans to encirle both British Army Corps. No doubt the British would have fought to the last and eventually been taken prisoner. For those of us who prefer to read actual books rather than any on a computer screen, you may find 'Memoires of Forty-Eight Years Service' by Smith-Dorrien helpful, especially Chapter 24 - to see the battle from Smith-Dorrien's perspective The Fog of War is never that easy to understand. There will always be differing viewpoints - not only from the participants on the ground but also from those who have since, had the opportunity to study the matter in far more detail than was readily available at the time. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 25 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2010 Robert The 2 1914 volumes are Here - Aug/Oct and Here - Oct/Nov. Regards Brian Thank you for the link Robert I will make good use of it Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin Posted 25 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2010 The alternative history, the what if scenario leads me to conclude there are those who mis-judged Smith-Dorrien in 1914-15. When the book The Man Who Disobeyed was published in 1970 it demonstrated that jealously and spite led to his downfall. Had Smith-Dorrien's Army not held the line at Le Cateau and retired in the way that it did then a gap might well have been created, thus potentially enabling the Germans to encirle both British Army Corps. No doubt the British would have fought to the last and eventually been taken prisoner. For those of us who prefer to read actual books rather than any on a computer screen, you may find 'Memoires of Forty-Eight Years Service' by Smith-Dorrien helpful, especially Chapter 24 - to see the battle from Smith-Dorrien's perspective The Fog of War is never that easy to understand. There will always be differing viewpoints - not only from the participants on the ground but also from those who have since, had the opportunity to study the matter in far more detail than was readily available at the time. Philip Philip thanks I cant find that one in my library. It is a bit too expensive for me on Amazon too at £95 so I will have to ask around to see if anyone has it. I am looking at the transcript on line and yes the book would be better. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Wilson Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 For a balanced view then I suggest you read Chapter 9 'Horace Smith-Dorrien, Second Army 1914-15' by Steven J.Corvi in 'Haig's Generals ' edited by Ian F.W. Beckett and Steven J. Corvi; published in 2006, good bibliography and plenty of notes for further reading. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRONNO Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 At one stage c. 1980 I nearly lived in the Museum. Curator was, if memory serves, a Major Creamer? Blimey Major Creamer!!, a lot of water has gone under Trent Bridge since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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