Battalion Colours

[Tyneside Chinaman]

The Town Moor in Newcastle parties of the Service battalions form up with their new colours.

Note the movie cameraman running out of shot. I was originally told by the owner this was 1915 before they went overseas but on reflection this cannot be correct.

[AIF]

Tyneside Chinama:

Your 4th Cheshire Regiment from Birkenhead photograph is outstanding :thumbsup:

[AIF]

Here are the 3rd Pioneer Battalion AIF colours. My copy of this rppc was sent home by Private James Thomas Honeyman who was an original member of the Battalion. On the backside Private Honeyman describes in detail how and where the colours were presented.

[Graham Stewart]

Guys, could I ask a quick something.

What is meant to happen to laid up colours?

Are they supposed to be left to fade away or be preserved behind a glass frame etc?

The reason I ask is there are good examples of both types hanging in Cathedrals in N.Ireland.

As the saying goes - "old soldiers never die, they only fade away" and so it was with their Reghimental Colours and so sadly hundreds of years of British Military history have been lost to "laying up". It's only been over the last forty or fifty years that preservation has been given to these priceless objects. Museums hold some as do some regiments, but sadly many still reside where they were 'layed' rotting away, a sight which breaks your heart.

[AIF]

Graham:

During WW I were there any regulations concerning Company guidons?

[Graham Stewart]

As far as I'm aware "guidons" are the cavalry's equivalent of Infantry Colours, so wouldn't be associated with companies, which again are infantry orientated. The Regimental Flags illustration which I posted earlier actually comes from a copy of "Standing Orders" of the Northumberland Fusiliers and I would suspect all such copies of Regimental Standing Orders would have refernces to Regimental Colours and Flags. As you will have noticed all the Company Flags are represented under the old battalion eight company system, which was later reduced to four companies per battalion.

Going back to "Guidons" and it's cavalry association, I would expect that each squadron within a cavalry regiment would have had something similar to the Company Flag of the infantry, again a reference would probably be found in Regimental Standing Orders.

If I remember correctly the Company Flags weren't solely used for marking out Camp Lines, but may have also been used as Company markers during parades. Even today I think I've seen similar flags(in minature) used by the Guards Regiments during their parades for the Queens Birthday, but would require confirmation of this by our Guards friends.

[robins2]

As far as I'm aware "guidons" are the cavalry's equivalent of Infantry Colours, so wouldn't be associated with companies, which again are infantry orientated. The Regimental Flags illustration which I posted earlier actually comes from a copy of "Standing Orders" of the Northumberland Fusiliers and I would suspect all such copies of Regimental Standing Orders would have refernces to Regimental Colours and Flags. As you will have noticed all the Company Flags are represented under the old battalion eight company system, which was later reduced to four companies per battalion.

Going back to "Guidons" and it's cavalry association, I would expect that each squadron within a cavalry regiment would have had something similar to the Company Flag of the infantry, again a reference would probably be found in Regimental Standing Orders.

If I remember correctly the Company Flags weren't solely used for marking out Camp Lines, but may have also been used as Company markers during parades. Even today I think I've seen similar flags(in minature) used by the Guards Regiments during their parades for the Queens Birthday, but would require confirmation of this by our Guards friends.

Cavalry Squadrons have Pennant denoting each squadron (A<B C< etc,)

[robins2]

[Graham Stewart]

Robin2 - thanks for that. So in the cavalry each Squadron had a 'pennant' as opposed to a Company flag of the infantry! Could you also confirm whether or not that references to such items would be found in Regimental Standing Orders for cavalry regiments?? These appear to lesser known items than either Colours or Guidons and would I be correct in saying that Cavalry regiments only had a single Guidon as opposed to a pair of Colours for the infantry???

[ulsterlad2]

As the saying goes - "old soldiers never die, they only fade away" and so it was with their Reghimental Colours and so sadly hundreds of years of British Military history have been lost to "laying up". It's only been over the last forty or fifty years that preservation has been given to these priceless objects. Museums hold some as do some regiments, but sadly many still reside where they were 'layed' rotting away, a sight which breaks your heart.

Thanks Graham. Here's one, left to fade away.

[robins2]

Robin2 - thanks for that. So in the cavalry each Squadron had a 'pennant' as opposed to a Company flag of the infantry! Could you also confirm whether or not that references to such items would be found in Regimental Standing Orders for cavalry regiments?? These appear to lesser known items than either Colours or Guidons and would I be correct in saying that Cavalry regiments only had a single Guidon as opposed to a pair of Colours for the infantry???

Graham

I am refering to Canadian Calvary Regiments, who usually follow the trends & traditions of the British Regiments. Each Squadron has its own Pennant denoting the Sqn. ,A,B,C,HQ etc. usually only used for parades where right maker forms up. also used on Sqn, vehicles, again usually for parade purposes. As far as appearing in Regimental Standing orders, I do not know. I am relying on my service expirience with the Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal canadians) & The Fort Garry Horse.

Each Cavalry Regiment has one Guidon which is cared for with the utmost dignity and guarded by the Color Party as depicted in my photos. The Guidons are presented to the Regiments by the reigning monarch or a Royal Family Member. In the case of the LDSH(RC) Prince Charles is the Col. In Chief of the Regiment. when the Guidon becomes tattered or torn it is replaced by a new one in a lavish parade/ceremony. The old guidons are usually placed in a controlled area (Regimental HQ/Museum) and are well cared for.

regards Bob R.

[KennethB]

robins2

Is the Guidon the "Kings" colours or the Battalion? Also do you know of a source that gives information on this topic? I've seen reference to penants with 2 colours on them, not unlike the Sqrn. penants. As well I saw a picture of several traditional Calvary symbols in different colours. Do you know how these items fit in?

KB

[robins2]

robins2

Is the Guidon the "Kings" colours or the Battalion? Also do you know of a source that gives information on this topic? I've seen reference to penants with 2 colours on them, not unlike the Sqrn. penants. As well I saw a picture of several traditional Calvary symbols in different colours. Do you know how these items fit in?

KB

the colors on the Guidon are the Regimental colors, in the case of the LDSH(RC) their colors are myrtle Green & Red, the Squadron pennants are two colors (Green/Red), each Regiment has their own colors which they display on their Guidon & Pennants, as for a source, at this time I can not provide any.

Regards Bob R.

[auchonvillerssomme]

For anyone interested there is a very good and very cheap book detailing the Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies.

Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies by Anthony Baker .1986.

Plenty on Abebooks

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=baker&bt.x=0&bt.y=0&sts=t&tn=battle+honours+of+british+and+commonwealth

[dycer]

As /Regiments/Battalions were/are disbanded their Colours are laid up,probably in the Regiment's/Battalion's Church and allowed to fade away.

It was open and is open for a Regimental/Battalion old Soldier to attend a Church Service and see his Colours.

George

[AIF]

Colour Party, 54th Kootenay Battalion CEF.

[AIF]

Members of the 38th Battalion and Their Friends on Parliament Hill in August 1915 Prior to leaving for Montreal

(Private James Carl Brokenshire, 410692 - second soldier from the left)

[ianjonesncl]

Restored Colours 2nd Battalion Tyneside Scottish (21st NF), St Cuthberts Church, Bedlington, Northumberland.

[ianjonesncl]

Tyneside Scottish

In Hallowed Keeping - Battle Emblems of the gallant Tyneside Scottish, laid up in Scotland's National War Memorial." Edinburgh, Scotland.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=16301

The colours were returned to Tyneside at some stage.

[edwin astill]

The war diary of the 1st Battalion Wiltshire Regt. records that just before Christmas 1918 a party left France to go and collect the Regimental Colours left behind at the Regimental Depot, Devizes. They returned on 31st December. I expect a similar thing took place with other battalions.

Edwin

[joerookery]

Not British but still Battalion colors.

ps1491 by joerookery, on Flickr

ps1327 by joerookery, on Flickr

[Graham Stewart]

Tyneside Scottish

In Hallowed Keeping - Battle Emblems of the gallant Tyneside Scottish, laid up in Scotland's National War Memorial." Edinburgh, Scotland.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=16301

The colours were returned to Tyneside at some stage.

Interesting, but incorrect as all the TS Colours were returned to Tyneside after the War. The date 1928 might imply the opening of the Scottish National War Memorial for which they may have been loaned. One of the better sources is the Illustrated Chronicle for 1918/19 showing the Colours being returned.

[Old Tom]

Some fine pictures, many thanks to those who posted. The picture with Post 25 seems odd, in that the officer carrying the colour does not appear to have a sling (if that's the right word) and is using both hands to hold the colour. I regret I know nothing of the regiment but might presume that they were a New Army regiment and that the battalions did not hold the necessary ceremonial equipment.

Old Tom

[FROGSMILE]

Robin2 - thanks for that. So in the cavalry each Squadron had a 'pennant' as opposed to a Company flag of the infantry! Could you also confirm whether or not that references to such items would be found in Regimental Standing Orders for cavalry regiments?? These appear to lesser known items than either Colours or Guidons and would I be correct in saying that Cavalry regiments only had a single Guidon as opposed to a pair of Colours for the infantry???

Just as for the NF, RWF had company colours for parade, and camp 'markers'. The devices for each company were taken from the regimental colour.

A Coy - Rising Sun behind a green hill (top left and bottom right).

B Coy - PoW Feathers (centre).

C Coy - White Horse of House of Hanover (bottom left).

D Coy - Sphinx Egypt (bottom centre).

Support Company - Minden Rose in Red and White (design taken from union rose in centre).

HQ Coy - Red Dragon Rampant (top right).

[Robert Dunlop]

Each Squadron has its own Pennant denoting the Sqn. ,A,B,C,HQ etc...

At the outbreak of the Great War, cavalry pennants were still used to identify command positions. In a fast-moving situation, it was vital that messengers could rapidly identify where to go to deliver the message. The cavalryman with the pennant would stay with the commander, thereby identifying his position on the battlefield. Not surprisingly, it also had the potential to identify the commander to the enemy as well

Robert