4thGordons Posted 11 December , 2011 Share Posted 11 December , 2011 I just got hold of another picture: Could one of the experts explain to me what is shown here? The Colours appear to be numbered I, II - are these for the Regular Army battalions or something else as some of they seem to be dulplicated? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 11 December , 2011 Share Posted 11 December , 2011 I just got hold of another picture: Could one of the experts explain to me what is shown here? The Colours appear to be numbered I, II - are these for the Regular Army battalions or something else as some of they seem to be dulplicated? Chris Hello Chris, Nice photograph. No expert! However, I'd say that the colours are for the 1st[Regular], 2nd[Regular] Bn's and the 3rd[Militia] Bn's King's/Queen's Colours [union flag] and Regimental Colours [Plain field]. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 December , 2011 Share Posted 11 December , 2011 Hi Arthur, Thanks, that makes sense - although I suspect the 3rd may be the "Reserve" or Depot Battalion as the TF Battalions had their own colours. Thanks again, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 11 December , 2011 Share Posted 11 December , 2011 Hi Arthur, Thanks, that makes sense - although I suspect the 3rd may be the "Reserve" or Depot Battalion as the TF Battalions had their own colours. Thanks again, Chris Hello Chris, Brig. E. A. James 'British Regiments 1914-18: The Gordon Highlanders: "3rd (Reserve) Bn. 04/08/1914 Aberdeen. Remained at Aberdeen throughout the war providing drafts of over 800 officers and 20,000 men (Aberdeen Garrison)." Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 Looking at the Colours you have the 'old' to our left and 'new' to our right. As mentioned they're the Colours of both the Regular and Reserve battalion, but look at the crown's QVC to our left and Kings Crown to the right. The obvious dating would be after the death of Victoria, when all Colours would then be renewed with those of Edward VII, hence the Kings Crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 Looking at the Colours you have the 'old' to our left and 'new' to our right. As mentioned they're the Colours of both the Regular and Reserve battalion, but look at the crown's QVC to our left and Kings Crown to the right. The obvious dating would be after the death of Victoria, when all Colours would then be renewed with those of Edward VII, hence the Kings Crown. Hmmmmm They have what appear to be SMLE MkIII's (introduced 1907) but with bayonets without quillons (removed from 1913) piled to right and left - which might throw a bit of a spanner in the works for that date? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 Colours are changed every so many years and the 2nd Bn has already changed theirs, but the 1st & 3rd Bn's haven't. Colours accompany the Battalion wherever they are in the world under peace time conditions, but in the time of War they are deposited in a Cathedral/Church, which has significance to the regiment. Seeing the three 'sets' together, could possibly mean that they may be about to be deposited, rather than the 1st & 3rd Bn's having theirs renewed. That ceremony would have been put into abeyance on the outbreak of the War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 A bit of thinking aloud here. Unusual to have the sergeants in SD for such a formal shot UNLESS the full dress was in abeyance, ie after 4th Aug 1914. We need an expert on Colours, but I for one was not aware that Militia had colours [ie III battalion] ...... it cannot be SR because SR not formed until 1908, and would have KC. I imagine that the III SR would 'inherit' the Militia Colour, or at least be custodians? Where would all Colours be together ...... at the Depot after mobilisation certainly ..... III bn collocated with Depot, and I and II put Colours into safe keeping. So I go for Aug/ Sep 1914 Step forward an expert on Colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 A bit of thinking aloud here. Unusual to have the sergeants in SD for such a formal shot UNLESS the full dress was in abeyance, ie after 4th Aug 1914. We need an expert on Colours, but I for one was not aware that Militia had colours [ie III battalion] ...... it cannot be SR because SR not formed until 1908, and would have KC. I imagine that the III SR would 'inherit' the Militia Colour, or at least be custodians? Where would all Colours be together ...... at the Depot after mobilisation certainly ..... III bn collocated with Depot, and I and II put Colours into safe keeping. So I go for Aug/ Sep 1914 Step forward an expert on Colours. See post #9, which shows the 3rd(S.R.)Bn, NF parading their new Colours, at Alnwick in 1909, their design falling in line with those of the two regular battalions. The Regimental Colours of the old Militia Battalions often reflected the facing colours of the relevant battalions from which they were descended. In the case of 3rd Bn, NF the old Regimental Colour was 'Buff' coloured, and the battalion was known locally as the Northumberland 'Buffs'. Scroll down this link from GMIC to see photo's of the parade mentioned;- http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/25563-the-royal-northumberland-fusiliers/page__st__40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 I have to say that I agree with Graham and Grumpy here that this marks a momentous occasion, outwith of replacing colours. In this case I think it is the blessing and laying up of the regiment's colours at the beginning of WW1, after mobilisation. The colours are for the two regular battalions and its associated reserve unit, the third battalion. In front the drums have been 'piled' in a formal manner and that invariably marks a religious ceremony, which I think is the blessing before laying up. The padres, usually all three, but with the senior presiding, would take the drumhead service with whatever troops have been available from the regiment. Colours were by that date (and still are today) replaced every 25 years or so, and not when the sovereign changes. It would be quite normal at that time for some battalions to have the QVC and some the TC. As Graham said, the second battalion has recently received new colours, the 1st and 3rd still have some years to go. The men are wearing SD because the entire regiment is on a war footing and full dress has almost certainly been returned to store, as was laid down by regulation at that time (after the Boer War), notwithstanding of the later, and separate decision to formally place all full dress in abeyance until further notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 In front the drums have been 'piled' in a formal manner and that invariably marks a religious ceremony, which I think is the blessing before laying up. The padres, usually all three, but with the senior presiding, would take the drumhead service with whatever troops have been available from the regiment. Colours were by that date (and still are are) replaced every 25 years or so, and not when the sovereign changes. It would be quite normal at that time for some battalions to have the QVC and some the TC. As Graham said, the second battalion has recently received new colours, the 1st and 3rd still have some years to go. Frogsmile & Grumpy - I haven't got any of my Militia Regs here with me, but would like to know if the same rule of 25yrs to Colour change would be applied to the Militia, considering that they were rarely embodied, so technically their Colours wouldn't deteriorate as quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 Frogsmile & Grumpy - I haven't got any of my Militia Regs here with me, but would like to know if the same rule of 25yrs to Colour change would be applied to the Militia, considering that they were rarely embodied, so technically their Colours wouldn't deteriorate as quickly. MR 1889 says 30 years para 1113 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill24chev Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 Didn't the BN serving overseas have its Colours with them? If so all three colours (1st, 2nd & 3rd Bns) would only be together in UK when Bn serving overseas treturned to uk to form one of the Divisions 7,8,.27,28 or 29). There could of course have been a short period of time, pre war, when one Bn had just returned to Uk and the other was about to embark for overseas service, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 Colours had not been taken on active service for some time before the Great War. Whereas it is generally the case in peacetime that one battalion was at Home, and one overseas, it was not an invariable rule. For example, both battalions of RWF were in Malta for St Davids Day 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 IIRC Immediately prior to the outbreak of war the 1st Bn were at home and went to F&F on Aug. 14th, the 2nd Battalion were in Egypt and arrived in F&F on Oct 7th after a very short stay in the UK. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill24chev Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 Colours had not been taken on active service for some time before the Great War. Was garrison duty in India, Hong Kong, The West Indies etc. classed as actyive service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 IIRC Immediately prior to the outbreak of war the 1st Bn were at home and went to F&F on Aug. 14th, the 2nd Battalion were in Egypt and arrived in F&F on Oct 7th after a very short stay in the UK. Chris So perhaps the photo was c. 1st Oct 1914 or a little later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 MR 1889 says 30 years para 1113 I think it might still be 30-years now, but I don't have the current regulations to hand. Something about 25-years has stuck in my mind though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 December , 2011 Share Posted 18 December , 2011 So perhaps the photo was c. 1st Oct 1914 or a little later? That would seem eminently reasonable to me. I may drop a line to the Regimental Museum - they might resolve this but I suspect that you are probably correct. Thanks very much everyone for your thoughts/time on this! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 December , 2011 Share Posted 19 December , 2011 Was garrison duty in India, Hong Kong, The West Indies etc. classed as actyive service? Not active service per se, no, they were just overseas garrisons. However, they were more likely to see active service whilst overseas, especially in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 19 December , 2011 Share Posted 19 December , 2011 Black Watch,Dundee & Angus. Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 19 December , 2011 Share Posted 19 December , 2011 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry/Scottish Horse. Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 December , 2011 Share Posted 19 December , 2011 Here is a photograph of the Colours of 1st and 2nd Battalion, The Suffolk Regiment in Gibraltar, 1926. It was one of only three occasions when the two Battalions met during the regiment's 274 year history and was, of course, considered an important enough occasion to capture on film. If there was a 25 year rule about Colours no one told the Suffolks; the old 6 foot Colours on the left were presented to the 1st Battalion in 1849 and were not replaced until May 1955! The other photo shows the 3rd (SR) Battalion being presented with new Colours in 1912 to replace the old Militia ones. My guess is that the splendid photograph of the Highlanders shows the Colours of the Regular Battalions and the Militia Battalion brought together for safekeeping while the battalions were at war. 2nd Suffolk's Colours spent the Second World War hung in Lahore Cathedral rather than send them home but I am sure that plenty of them were sent back rather than risk them being lost or worse, captured. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 December , 2011 Share Posted 21 December , 2011 Here is a photograph of the Colours of 1st and 2nd Battalion, The Suffolk Regiment in Gibraltar, 1926. It was one of only three occasions when the two Battalions met during the regiment's 274 year history and was, of course, considered an important enough occasion to capture on film. If there was a 25 year rule about Colours no one told the Suffolks; the old 6 foot Colours on the left were presented to the 1st Battalion in 1849 and were not replaced until May 1955! The other photo shows the 3rd (SR) Battalion being presented with new Colours in 1912 to replace the old Militia ones. My guess is that the splendid photograph of the Highlanders shows the Colours of the Regular Battalions and the Militia Battalion brought together for safekeeping while the battalions were at war. 2nd Suffolk's Colours spent the Second World War hung in Lahore Cathedralrather than send them home but I am sure that plenty of them were sent back rather than risk them being lost or worse, captured. Cheers, Taff Taff, it was not mandatory to have colours replaced every 25/30 years, it was merely a frequency limit that governed the period that they 'could' (if wished) be replaced at public expense (i.e. by the Treasury through war office incidental expenditure). As so often it was about money and regulated expenditure. Many regiments chose not to have their colours replaced, especially where they had significant history. The Northamptonshire 1st Battalion was a good example and they still had their colours, the last to be carried in action (in the 1st Boer War), in the 1950s. I agree with you that the photo probably showed "the Colours of the Regular Battalions and the Militia (Reserve) Battalion brought together for safekeeping while the battalions were at war." That is precisely what I meant when I said they were being laid up and it was (and still is) normal policy to bless them, via a drumhead service, when that is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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