Book Referral

[Mike Donoghue]

Could someone please refer me to a good book about the wars effects on Belgium?

Thank you very much.

Mike

[Robert Dunlop]

In English, Flemish or French?

Robert

[marsyao]

I also have a question, does Jeff Lipkes's "Rehearsals: The German Army in Belgium, August 1914" only relates to German arocities in the Belgium, or it also includes the combat history between German and Belgium army in August 1914?

[Mike Donoghue]

In English, Flemish or French?

Robert

In English.

Thanks Robert.

Mike

[Robert Dunlop]

The most detailed review was published in the 4 volume series 'La Belgique et la Guerre'. There is nothing like it in English that I am aware of.

I don't have any books in English that deal specifically with the military occupation of Belgium. There are some interesting insights in 'Scorched Earth: The Germans on the Somme 1914-1918'. Despite the title, the second chapter deals with the 'The German Occupation of Northern France'. The chapter contains diary quotes from a woman who was living in Lille.

The other book that gives a very vivid impression of the German occupation is Spears' book 'Prelude to Victory'. He describes the liberation of French towns during the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line in 1917.

Robert

[Mike Donoghue]

The most detailed review was published in the 4 volume series 'La Belgique et la Guerre'. There is nothing like it in English that I am aware of.

I don't have any books in English that deal specifically with the military occupation of Belgium. There are some interesting insights in 'Scorched Earth: The Germans on the Somme 1914-1918'. Despite the title, the second chapter deals with the 'The German Occupation of Northern France'. The chapter contains diary quotes from a woman who was living in Lille.

The other book that gives a very vivid impression of the German occupation is Spears' book 'Prelude to Victory'. He describes the liberation of French towns during the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line in 1917.

Robert

Thank you Robert,

I will try to locate both of your suggestions.

Mike

[SteveMarsdin]

Mike,

Do you mean the effect at the time of the invasion and the weeks immediately afterwards, the 4 years under occupation, the years since WW1 or a combination of these ? I am assuming you don't just mean the military effects but all of them !

As Robert has pointed out, most of the books are in French or Flemish; he is widely read on the topic and has helped me a lot in the past, so I would endorse his recommendations. I have several books and articles relating to August 1914 and the years under occupation in the Ardennes and Gaume, some telling the story at a local or village level. These are all in French but if that doesn't put you off and you would like me to add to Robert's list then please let me know.

I can't answer Marsyao's question as I have never read Lipke's book. On that particular subject I would recommend the original Schmitz & Nieuwland volumes (there are 7 I think), as oppose to the more recent Horne and Kramer work (which is possibly similar to Lipke ?) for the very fact that there is much more information about the actual combat at the time (although that isn't their primary focus).

[marsyao]

There is very few book public in English about the wars effects on Belgium, the famous "Gun of the August" has some information,Holger H. Herwig's "The Marne, 1914: The Opening of World War I and the Battle That Changed the World" provides some very usefull but very brief information about the war in Belgium, the only other book I could think of is "IN FLANDERS FLOODED FIELDS: Before Ypres There was Yser" by Paul Van Pul, and that may be the only book in English written from Belgium perspective about the early stage of WWI in Belgium.

For me, I would very much like to read a book about the siege of liege from Belgium perspective

[Mike Donoghue]

Mike,

Do you mean the effect at the time of the invasion and the weeks immediately afterwards, the 4 years under occupation, the years since WW1 or a combination of these ? I am assuming you don't just mean the military effects but all of them !

As Robert has pointed out, most of the books are in French or Flemish; he is widely read on the topic and has helped me a lot in the past, so I would endorse his recommendations. I have several books and articles relating to August 1914 and the years under occupation in the Ardennes and Gaume, some telling the story at a local or village level. These are all in French but if that doesn't put you off and you would like me to add to Robert's list then please let me know.

I can't answer Marsyao's question as I have never read Lipke's book. On that particular subject I would recommend the original Schmitz & Nieuwland volumes (there are 7 I think), as oppose to the more recent Horne and Kramer work (which is possibly similar to Lipke ?) for the very fact that there is much more information about the actual combat at the time (although that isn't their primary focus).

Thank you Steve for your suggestions, unfortunately I don't understand enough of French to be able to read and understand it. I guess I'll follow up on Robert's suggestions.

Thanks again

Mike

[Mike Donoghue]

There is very few book public in English about the wars effects on Belgium, the famous "Gun of the August" has some information,Holger H. Herwig's "The Marne, 1914: The Opening of World War I and the Battle That Changed the World" provides some very usefull but very brief information about the war in Belgium, the only other book I could think of is "IN FLANDERS FLOODED FIELDS: Before Ypres There was Yser" by Paul Van Pul, and that may be the only book in English written from Belgium perspective about the early stage of WWI in Belgium.

For me, I would very much like to read a book about the siege of liege from Belgium perspective

Thank you also marsyao for your thoughts. I am reading The Guns of August right now and I am enjoying it very much. I thought it would be interesting to read something on the topic from, as you suggest, from a Belgium perspective. I'll see if I can find your suggestion at my local library.

Thanks again.

Mike

[truthergw]

There is a book by I.V. Hull, called " Absolute Destruction. MIlitary culture and the practices of war in Imperial Germany", Wider ranging than the Great War, Professor Hull's book covers the interactions of the German Army with civilians including black Africans in their colonies but also devotes a lot of space to the occupation of France and Belgium. Not cheap, even in paperback but probably THE authority on this subject. I should think it is available at the public library.

[Mike Donoghue]

There is a book by I.V. Hull, called " Absolute Destruction. MIlitary culture and the practices of war in Imperial Germany", Wider ranging than the Great War, Professor Hull's book covers the interactions of the German Army with civilians including black Africans in their colonies but also devotes a lot of space to the occupation of France and Belgium. Not cheap, even in paperback but probably THE authority on this subject. I should think it is available at the public library.

Thank you Tom, the referral is greatly appreciated. I will see if I can find it as well.

Wow, I didn't realize I've been promoted to Sergeant!

Cheers

Mike

[cdr]

Try Sophie de Schaepdrijver " the Kingdom of Belgium in the first world war" The book by Zuckerman is also good.

If you have the possibility to read Flemish (not that difficult !)a lot of good books have recently been published eg 1914 Niemandsland on the period augustus to october 1914 (fascinating info on the use of the garde civique, raids, armoured trains etc. )

Carl

[Ken S.]

I also have a question, does Jeff Lipkes's "Rehearsals: The German Army in Belgium, August 1914" only relates to German arocities in the Belgium, or it also includes the combat history between German and Belgium army in August 1914?

Well, one thing is for certain, the author had little understanding of the German units that were involved in some of the alleged atrocities. The purpose of the book is really just to rehash the volumes of supposed contemporary eye witness accounts to remind the reader that the Germans had a unique predilection for engaging in barbarities. The author presents an interesting theory is that somehow what happened in Belgium was a "rehearsal" for what the Germans were later to do during WWII.

[Ken S.]

There is a book by I.V. Hull, called " Absolute Destruction. MIlitary culture and the practices of war in Imperial Germany", Wider ranging than the Great War, Professor Hull's book covers the interactions of the German Army with civilians including black Africans in their colonies but also devotes a lot of space to the occupation of France and Belgium. Not cheap, even in paperback but probably THE authority on this subject. I should think it is available at the public library.

Now what makes you think that this book is "THE authority" on the Imperial Germany's military culture?

[Robert Dunlop]

I respectfully suggest that Hull's book has been recommended as THE authority on the the original question about the war effects on Belgium, not on Imperial Germany's military culture. The title should not be confused, IMHO, with the recommendation about content. Hull's book is interesting but it's coverage of the occupation of France and Belgium is very selective. She was pursuing a particular hypothesis about German military culture. Her discussion about the occupation relates to this hypothesis. As such, it has a selective focus. An interesting read but it should not be regarded as definitive, on either subject.

Robert

[cdr]

So Ken, any proof this time for your statement on alleged atrocities, and supposed contemporary eye witness accounts ?

Carl

[Ken S.]

I respectfully suggest that Hull's book has been recommended as THE authority on the the original question about the war effects on Belgium, not on Imperial Germany's military culture. The title should not be confused, IMHO, with the recommendation about content. Hull's book is interesting but it's coverage of the occupation of France and Belgium is very selective. She was pursuing a particular hypothesis about German military culture. Her discussion about the occupation relates to this hypothesis. As such, it has a selective focus. An interesting read but it should not be regarded as definitive, on either subject.

Robert

I'm just curious how this book could be considered "THE authority" on anything. It's obvious what the author's agenda is, so such a work should be be viewed with skepticism and caution more than anything else. It would appear, though, that some people in their desperation to find validation for their belief that Germans were somehow particularly unique when it came to dealing with unruly conquered peoples, are willing to subscribe to the theories of a radical leftist (description partially deleted)

Edited 1 August , 2010 by Alan Curragh

[AlanCurragh]

Ken - I have no knowledge of the author but there is no place on the forum for your description of him

Alan

[Ken S.]

Ken - I have no knowledge of the author but there is no place on the forum for your description of him

Alan

Her. I'm not sure how you can assess the accuracy of my "description" if you're not even familiar with her writings. I would say that this is actually out and out censorship, then. Any discussion of her theories necessitates addressing her ideological bent. I would certainly be open to suggestions as to how my "description" was not accurate.

[AlanCurragh]

Well, I'm very sorry for making the mistake of referring to Professor Hull as "him". You used a term that to my mind was libellous, and I thought it best to remove it as soon as possible, without worrying about establishing Professor Hull's gender. That's not censorship, that's the forum rules

You will not make any statements that could be construed as defamatory of an individual, group or business.

Anyway, I have reinstated the second and third words of your description

Alan

Edited 1 August , 2010 by Alan Curragh

[Ken S.]

I'm not sure which one that could be, to be honest. None of those three words that you censored used either individually or as that phrase is to the point of being defamatory. Stating a historian's ideological orientation is a common enough occurrence in historical debate, and it's not exactly a secret as to where she stands in relation to mainstream historiography.

[AlanCurragh]

Ken - PM sent - absolutely no problem with "radical leftist" so that is now reinstated

Alan

[Ken S.]

I would prefer to not get involved in private discussions if that's okay. All I have to say is that if she or someone else as a member of the faculty of a reputable post-secondary institution is going to make an argument that despite all what we know about French, Russian, and British military culture and how that influenced the respective colonial policy of each, and what influence this had on their own conduct in the war, to nevertheless single out Germany as being unique warrants the appellation b??t. How somebody wants to (mis)interpret this is not my problem.

[AlanCurragh]

Thanks Ken - I think we simply have a language difficulty here. I hadn't realised you were in Canada - the word "bent" has some very different meanings this side of the Atlantic, and I hope you understand why I removed it

Let's return to the book discussion...