Thiepval Memorial - where to find names

[NickMilt]

Hello,

I've been doing some research into my great grandfather's brother, Harold Thomas Milton of the London Regiment, and his name is shown on the Thiepval Memorial.

Unfortunately, I'm struggling slightly to understand where on the memorial I would find his name, because the info from the CWGC seems a little ambiguous - almost as if it's shown twice (which can't be right) ? This is what it says:

"Pier and Face 9 D 9 C 13 C and 12 C"

I'm sure there would be some guidance from the visitor centre, but wanted to try and be somewhat prepared, just in case it's either very obvious, or very tricky, to track his name down.

This will, I believe, be the first time someone from our family has been to visit the memorial.

[Terry Denham]

The references given by CWGC are the pier and panels upon which men of that regiment are listed and so can spread over several. Once you locate the pier and the appropriate regiment the names are listed alphabetically under rank.

Good Luck

[larney]

The easiest way I've found is to download and print off the plan from the CWGC website. It's easy to find the relevant panels then, and as Terry says, the names are all alphabetical in order of rank, so there's nothing to be too concerned about.

Have a good trip by the way,

SteveJ.

[NickMilt]

The references given by CWGC are the pier and panels upon which men of that regiment are listed

Ah, that suddenly makes things a lot clearer.

From the limited research I've been able to do so far, not least because the London Regiment seems to be particularly confusing, it seems that his regiment was quite large and made up of a large proportion of TA soldiers. I have his MIC details, a rubbing from the bronze medal which was sent to the family and details of the medals / ribbons which my aunt has, but not much beyond that. So far... I will keep on researching though

[David_Underdown]

The London Regiment was entirely Territorial Force, though individual battalions were also affiliated to other regiments just to make the picture more confusing. See http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htm for a brief overview of each battalion and http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_infantry.htm makes the affiliations more explicit.

So, for you man, the full title of his battalion was 1/19th (County of London) Battalion (St Pancras) which ws affiliated to the Middlesex Regiment. Though as you'll see from the first website above, it's war record was basically the same as 1/18th, the London Irish, who were affiliated to the Royal Irish Rifles.

[Malcolm]

All the panels given are on the North side of the Monument marked red on the attached plan courtesy CWGC.

Aye

Malcolm

[NickMilt]

Can I just say a very large thank you to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

I was a little concerned I was asking a daft question, but to get some many replies in the space of one afternoon is very much appreciated !

Thanks everyone

[bruce]

Was he a private? If so, it is a fair bet that his name will be on 12C or 13C.

If you are going to take a picture, then you will need a good camera, with zoom. Whenever I want a photo of a name on Thiepval, it is always waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up there! From standing on the terrace, up to the top of the names on 12C or 13C, you really are quite a distance below, so be prepared for a long view.

Enjoy your trip!

Bruce

[NickMilt]

Was he a private? If so, it is a fair bet that his name will be on 12C or 13C.

If you are going to take a picture, then you will need a good camera, with zoom. Whenever I want a photo of a name on Thiepval, it is always waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up there! From standing on the terrace, up to the top of the names on 12C or 13C, you really are quite a distance below, so be prepared for a long view.

Enjoy your trip!

Bruce

Thanks for the heads-up Bruce. He was indeed a Private.

I shall probably try and take a photo, but to be honest, the main reason for going there is really just to pay our respects because I'm 99% nobody else from the family would have visited. As far as I can tell he was still at home at around the time of the 1911 census, and he was about 36 when he was killed. I'm trying to find out if he married and had children (his brother did, my grandfather) so I can share what I've found out.

I'm also going to visit the London Cemetery on my way to Thiepval, as that feels like, if Harold is anywhere, that's where he might be.

I've been quite lucky in that I also found, on these very forums, some information relating to my great grandfather (also from my father's side of the family), and I may be able to make a connection with someone in Western Australia who has some photos and letters relating to the time he left France in 1914 (shipped home due to a boil on his backside apparently !) and his time in the Army Pay Corps up until 1920. My father remembers him as he lived in the front downstairs room of his parent's house.

I'm finding the whole journey quite fascinating to be honest, and my wife has now asked if we can start looking into the history on her side of the family.

[bruce]

Dear Nick

The NHS is a wonderful thing, but it can do nothing for you now.

You have the bug.

You are hooked.

There is no way back.

You have become infected by the same ailment that aflicts many of us on the Forum.

Before long, you will be trailing through Ancestry, planning visits to Kew, making plans for the family holiday in Belgium and explaining that you really only want to visit just a couple of the more out of the way cemeteries.

Relax.

There are many worse illnesses to catch.

Enjoy it.

Bruce

[rendellers]

Too true Bruce I have withdrawal symptons at the moment as I am unable to visit this year. However I am enjoying researching the men on my local memorial which provides the need to go again...

Nick I echo everything about the difficulty of taking clear photos.

We were lucky enough that in the cemetery area we found 'known unto to God' headstones for the regiments of the men we were commemorating and we put poppy crosses on them. (We were also lucky that the shop at Thiepval had some of the crosses for sale.However you can get them from your local British Legion before you go if you want to)

Lindsey

[Le_Treport]

Nick - you will be amazed, stunned, shocked when you see soooo many names on the Thiepval memorial. These are just the names of men killed just in that one area of the Western Front, in one battle, and these are just those with no known grave. If you pass the Pozieres memorial, or get to the Menin Gate, or Tyne Cot, or other 'memorials of the missing' and you see even more names of the missing you begin to appreciate the scale of the loss.... The names don't appear on more than one! --- and that doesn't include those who have a grave in the cemeteries you see scattered across the landscape ... and that was just the British!

[NickMilt]

Currently sitting in our hotel in Honfleur using my daughter's iPod to post this, so apologies for the brevity.

I found his name and it wasn't right up the top!

But words fail me for the sheer scale of the events of 1916.

The film in the visitors centre was very powerful, and I'll put my hand up to having a (very large) lump in my throat.

Also visited the London Cemetery and saw countless others dotted about the scenery.

Off to Pegasus Bridge and Sword Beach tomorrow before heading home.

[bruce]

If you want something really different, then try the US cemetery at St. laurent...overlooking Omaha beach.

Is this the only cemetery where you need to go through airport-style security to visit a cemetery???

Bruce

[NickMilt]

I found his name and it wasn't right up the top!

But words fail me for the sheer scale of the events of 1916.

The film in the visitors centre was very powerful, and I'll put my hand up to having a (very large) lump in my throat.

Also visited the London Cemetery and saw countless others dotted about the scenery.

Slightly longer post now having got home and had a chance to gather my thoughts.

Firstly, this all stemmed from a rubbing of the the bronze memorial plaque (which my aunt currently has) for a Harold Thomas Milton, who I guessed was my great grandfather's brother (correctly as it turned out - Harold was his younger brother). I then found out the significance of the plaque and from there found out his name was on the Thiepval memorial.

This was some four or five years ago and time had simply passed until I decided to have a look into my family's records again, on the back of my daughter telling me she was going to be studying WWII at school next term.

So, I thought we could all make a quick trip across the channel to visit Thiepval (to find Harold's name) and then head on to Normandy to see the landing beaches and Pegasus Bridge (having read an account of that some years ago). Various searches and parallel lines of enquiry eventually led me to this site and it proved to be very helpful, not just with practical information such as where to find his name (Bruce you were were spot-on by the way - he was to be found on panel 13C) but also a bit more of the background about the London Regiment.

But above all, what I found was a strong sense of having made a connection with Harold, not just a name on the memorial. He's now a 'someone' again, and I'm trying to find out more about his past (he was a wood carver in St. Pancras) and when he signed up (he was relatively old when he was killed, aged around 36).

As for Thiepval ? It was indeed as large and impressive as I was expecting. But the thing I perhaps wasn't expecting was that, for all its size, it felt personal - we weren't the only ones there looking for a name, so even some 94 years later it still has a very big 'draw' for the families of the fallen.

The visitor centre is also a wealth of information for the Somme 'Newbies' such as myself and my family. Yes, I knew a bit about it, but it was the context and little gems of information here and there which made it as much an educational trip as one to make a connection. One very poignant moment was when my wife made a comment about the 19,000 + men who had been killed during the battle. I then pointed out that the figure was just for 1 July 1916.... I don't think she'd really appreciated the scale of events prior to that.

And the film was also both interesting and moving. Oddly, the part I found most moving was the creation of the cemeteries and why they came to be where they were. I hadn't realised that families had made the trip to visit the cemeteries and memorials so soon after the war, so actually I might not have been the first member of our family to visit Thiepval. But it must have been one heck of a trip back then, with next to no public transport.

The two words which I think best sum up my experience are 'fascinating' and 'moving'.

I doubt it will be my last visit there.

[NickMilt]

Actually, I forgot to ask a question which I *think*, from having read various comments on here, I know the answer to (at least in general terms), but would appreciate confirmation of.

The Thiepval memorial commemorates the names of the missing, i.e. soldiers for whom there is no known grave. But, they could either be:

- totally missing; or

- buried in a grave marked with a headstone bearing the words "A soldier of the Great War. Known unto God", sometimes with their regiment and rank identified.

Is that correct ?

And if and when someone is found who can be identified, then their name is removed from the memorial and placed on the headstone of their grave, correct ?

Just trying to make sure I've understood the 'etiquette' of the various memorials and cemeteries.

Thanks again.

Nick

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Hi Nick,

Correct in all cases.

I remember my first visit to Thiepval. People kept telling me that the sheer size of the memorial is overpowing, when i got there i knew exactly what they meant- it takes your breath away. I have been lucky on a couple of visits there as we have been the only ones there, it's an amazing experience when there are just 2 or 3 of you.

As Bruce says, you have been bitten and there is no way back!

[bruce]

Nick

You may well have seen blanks on some of the panels, where names have been filled in. In some cases, the men named may not have died, or have been found to have a named headstone elsewhere, or else they were subsequently found and identified. Names have also subsequently been added...to the adenda panels. there are now quite a few names that need to be removed, and quite a few that need to be added. Some of the panels have worn better than others. As I understand it, the decision has been taken not to blank outany more names, but to await the re-engraving of panels and insert those which need to be added, whilst also taking out those which need removal. At least, that is what I thought had been decided. If I am wrong, then I would be pleased to hear it.

I also seem to remember that dedicating Thiepval was the only overseas function to be conducted by Edward VIII.

How the Memorial came to be where it is located, rather than where it was originally planned, is also of interest.

There....I admit to being a fully paid-up anorak.

You are well on the way to buying yours too!

Bruce

[NickMilt]

Thanks for that Bruce,

I can't say I saw any blanks, but we did notice the addenda panels on some of the faces. It was also very apparent that some of the panels looked quite a bit newer than the surrounding ones.

I have to say, it makes it much more of a 'living' memorial, to know that it's being updated to reflect the most up to date information.

I knew the memorial had been dedicated by the Prince of Wales, but it wasn't until I saw the film that I twigged who that was ! I will confess that my knowledge of kings and queens immediately before and after Victoria isn't that great

I may well be in France on the weekend before the 15th September so I'm looking at making a small detour on the way home to lay a small poppy cross there.

Right, I'm now off to find out why the memorial is where it is now (I'm a sucker for needing to know things once my curiosity has been triggered)

[NickMilt]

Correct in all cases.

I remember my first visit to Thiepval. People kept telling me that the sheer size of the memorial is overpowing, when i got there i knew exactly what they meant- it takes your breath away. I have been lucky on a couple of visits there as we have been the only ones there, it's an amazing experience when there are just 2 or 3 of you.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Perhaps I was expecting it to be as big as it was, so it wasn't quite such a surprise, but still impressive and imposing.

Another word, upon reflection, which does spring to mind is 'appropriate' - it's size is most assuredly appropriate to the scale of events that took place in and around the Somme.