Postcards

[TomWW1]

10 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

5th Gloucesters at Bustard Camp, 1910, by M. H. Hack of Cheltenham. Note the protective shoulder cover worn by almost all of them.

There are photos of Gloucestershire territorials in 1914/15 at their Essex stations prior to going overseas which were taken by a J. W. Hack of Suffolk Road, Cheltenham. Likely the two Hacks are related. The latter, John Walters Hack, joined the 2/5th Gloucesters later in the war and was killed in action on the 21st April 1918, aged 37, during the Battle of the Lys. 

 

Royal Engineers in marching order and their Army Service Corps driver.

Great quality on those photos!

[Pat Atkins]

12 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

Royal Engineers in marching order and their Army Service Corps driver.

 

What a great informal group of REs of mixed rank and, if moustaches are anything to go by, service. Very nice photo, thanks for posting. Do you know where it was taken, @gunnerwalker? 

[gunnerwalker]

3 hours ago, TomWW1 said:

Great quality on those photos!

Yes they’re nice ones, allows for lots of detail to be picked out.

 

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

What a great informal group of REs of mixed rank and, if moustaches are anything to go by, service. Very nice photo, thanks for posting. Do you know where it was taken, @gunnerwalker? 

Unfortunately I don’t know where it is. Nothing on the back, no photographer’s stamp and I even tried scouring the background for shop names and street signs but couldn’t pick anything out. It is a great photo, looks like a hot day to be out marching.

[GWF1967]

Lewis Gun Section.  Northumberland Fusiliers? Territorial Force. 

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Lewis Gun Section.  Northumberland Fusiliers? Territorial Force. 

Yes the badge certainly looks like NF, which should be checkable via the shoulder titles if you have a good magnifying glass and the original print.  I always recommend a thread counter to postcard collectors and personally find them more user friendly than a jewellers loupe.  The other cap badges that look very similar from any distance are the Royal Munster Fusiliers and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.  The latter can be ruled out as they were the only fusilier regiment with a curved shoulder title in their lower tier and even with the naked eye we can see that’s not the case here.  The location will be a clue too if known, plus statistically it’s more likely to be Northumberland’s, which had a huge number of battalions whereas the Munsters was quite small by comparison.  In both cases a reflection of the geographical size of their respective recruiting catchment areas.

Edited 14 June by FROGSMILE

[tullybrone]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the badge certainly looks like NF, which should be checkable via the shoulder titles if you have a good magnifying glass and the original print.  I always recommend a thread counter to postcard collectors and personally find them more user friendly than a jewellers loupe.  The other cap badges that look very similar from any distance are the Royal Munster Fusiliers and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.  The latter can be ruled out as they were the only fusilier regiment with a curved shoulder title in their lower tier and even with the naked eye we can see that’s not the case here.  The location will be a clue too if known, plus statistically it’s more likely to be Northumberland’s, which had a huge number of battalions whereas the Munsters was quite small by comparison.  In both cases a reflection of the geographical size of their respective recruiting catchment areas.

I think I can see a few men with WW1 campaign medal ribbons so it is likely a post WW1 photo.

 

Steve

[6RRF]

The pouches for the Lewis gun pans would also suggest a late or post-war date

[Muerrisch]

47 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

I think I can see a few men with WW1 campaign medal ribbons so it is likely a post WW1 photo.

 

Steve

Yes, and a strange group. I can see only one ranking, a corporal. I see no LG wreath badges. No wound badges. No overseas chevrons.

Well over 50 men. Was there ever such a thing as a LG SECTION as such?

I will have a dig around.

Edited 14 June by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Yes, and a strange group. I can see only one ranking, a corporal. I see no LG wreath badges. No wound badges. No overseas chevrons.

Well over 50 men. Was there ever such a thing as a LG SECTION as such?

I will have a dig around.

It would be the machine gun section perhaps.  Didn’t the Lewis initially replace the Vickers for that section?  Later on in the war the establishment of Lewis Guns was increased and they were instead distributed throughout the rifle companies, with guns in each platoon. But that was an evolutionary process.  I think the photo probably dates to early 1916 and the issue of the Lewis on the home establishment for training.

1 hour ago, tullybrone said:

I think I can see a few men with WW1 campaign medal ribbons so it is likely a post WW1 photo.

 

Steve

I saw the ribands.  Might they not be Boer War, or an ex regular with Indian medals?  It needs an orthochromatic film interpreter.

Edited 14 June by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, 6RRF said:

The pouches for the Lewis gun pans would also suggest a late or post-war date

‘Karkee Web’ will say when the web carriers were introduced.  The men’s forage caps look like 1905s to me and the shoulder titles from the first half of the war.  Perhaps even a 2nd line battalion. 

Edited 14 June by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, tullybrone said:

I think I can see a few men with WW1 campaign medal ribbons so it is likely a post WW1 photo.

I agree, the BWM and VM ribbons are fairly clear on the two guys sat on the ground front viewers right, so at best a 1920 date.

[FROGSMILE]

The TF was stood down and in abeyance during 1920.  The Territorial Army was formed with different terms and conditions of service in 1921.

Edited 14 June by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

‘Karkee Web’ will say when the web carriers were introduced. 

Unfortunately not. I've just had a look at it. Absolutely splendid and comprehensive other than not covering Lewis Gun equipment [aaargh!]

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Unfortunately not. I've just had a look at it. Absolutely splendid and comprehensive other than not covering Lewis Gun equipment [aaargh!]

Thanks for looking it up, I’ll do some digging around and see if I can find anything. 

[Muerrisch]

Intriguing, as all good group photos are.

A couple of facts which do not help us much:

• LG badge intro AO 80 1917 so early 1917 first possible appearance.
• In 1917 each of the 16 platoons had a LG section of an NCO and nine men, giving a huge proportion of the battalion notionally gunners or support, 160 men at full strength, plus two HQ. SNCO instructors.

And a comment regarding the reasonable suggestion that the group is the old Vickers MG section with the replacement four [?] LGs:  no MG wreath badges in sight  [intro 1914], only a corporal and one l/cpl.

The one clincher might be the magazine carriers, not my area at all.

It isn't often we are stuck between say 1916 and 1919, scratching around for clues.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Intriguing, as all good group photos are.

A couple of facts which do not help us much:

• LG badge intro AO 80 1917 so early 1917 first possible appearance.
• In 1917 each of the 16 platoons had a LG section of an NCO and nine men, giving a huge proportion of the battalion notionally gunners or support, 160 men at full strength, plus two HQ. SNCO instructors.

And a comment regarding the reasonable suggestion that the group is the old Vickers MG section with the replacement four [?] LGs:  no MG wreath badges in sight  [intro 1914], only a corporal and one l/cpl.

The one clincher might be the magazine carriers, not my area at all.

It isn't often we are stuck between say 1916 and 1919, scratching around for clues.

Yes I think you’ve summed the situation up very well.

With regards to the carrier magazines .303in Lewis Gun, a past post by Chief Chum quotes:

“Norman Gladden describes the issue of the new harnesses in his book, 'Ypres'. He says that they were introduced just in time for the Battle of Menin Road Ridge (20 to 25 September 1917) which roughly ties in with the date of SS194. With each crew member being able to carry 8 x drums of 47 rounds instead of the previous 4 x drums there was a consequent reduction in the size of the crew.”

The late, great, Joe Sweeney said in the same thread:

”The Mills equipment you show was actually supposed to be worn with four panniers and put on like a vest (8 Magazines). SS194 (Oct 1917) has really good instructions, with photos, on how to use this type of rig.”

As well as - in respect of General Routine Order No. 2414, dated 30th June, 1917, for carrying Lewis Gun Magazines - the following:

“GRO 2414 states:

A new pattern carrier for carraige of Lewis gun magazines has been introduced to supplement the existing carrier authorized by GRO 1695.

The new pattern carrier is of web, and consists of two pouches and connecting strap or braces. Each pouch holds two magazines.

The scale of issue of carriers of both types will be:-

Carriers, Magazine .303 inch Lewis gun 5 per gun

Lewis gun .303 inch

Pouches Magazine web 12 per gun

Braces, pouch, magazine web 6 per gun

Indents......etc.

GRO 1695 (July 1916 introduced the Bucket carrier for 4 magazines, see photos above)

SS 194 describes how to wear the pouches. I tried posting a .pdf file with SS 194 with no luck.

SS 197 and many other documents call for a Lewis section to have an 8 man crew (not counting NCO). I can not find anywhere where there was an official reduction in this number from 1915 through 1918. However, real world expediancy was always present and most official documents do state that they should be used as guides and not as inflexible doctrine. An example of this is SS143 states that a platoon strength could vary and usually fell somewhere between 28 to 44 men with 36 being an average. Number below 28 the platoon should be disbanded.”

However, it’s clear from the enclosed photos that the bucket type carriers were made as early as 1916, so they probably reached the home establishment either, simultaneously, or a little before along with the guns for training.

Ostensibly the weight of the balance of evidence suggests 1917 to me, as otherwise I think we’d have seen more wartime forage caps, recycled NCOs with wound stripes, war ribands, and other signs of service, etc. had it been later, although perhaps Andrew is right about the ribands, which would make it at least 1919?  Overall it seems likely to be a 2nd or 3rd line unit. 

Edited 14 June by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Thanks to all.

The shoulder titles are not clear enough unfortunately, even with a thread counter. They appear to be 2 letters. 

[GWF1967]

Royal Artillery Territorials. Posted from Uckfield, East Sussex. 25th September 1914.   The Senior N.C.O, centre, has South African Ribbons. 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Thanks to all.

The shoulder titles are not clear enough unfortunately, even with a thread counter. They appear to be 2 letters. 

I agree it looks like two letters, which confirms incontrovertibly that the unit is one of Northumberland Fusiliera.

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Intriguing, as all good group photos are.

A couple of facts which do not help us much:

• LG badge intro AO 80 1917 so early 1917 first possible appearance.
• In 1917 each of the 16 platoons had a LG section of an NCO and nine men, giving a huge proportion of the battalion notionally gunners or support, 160 men at full strength, plus two HQ. SNCO instructors.

And a comment regarding the reasonable suggestion that the group is the old Vickers MG section with the replacement four [?] LGs:  no MG wreath badges in sight  [intro 1914], only a corporal and one l/cpl.

The one clincher might be the magazine carriers, not my area at all.

It isn't often we are stuck between say 1916 and 1919, scratching around for clues.

“By 1917 each British Infantry Battalion had 16 Lewis guns (Pioneer battalions had eight and Cyclist battalions had six). One section in each platoon was trained in the use of the Lewis gun and lived, fought and worked with the other three sections. With an average strength of 36 Other Ranks in the platoon the Lewis gun section consisted of 1 NCO and 8 men.

4 limbered General Service wagons for transport of Lewis guns were available for each infantry battalion one was allotted to each company for its 4 guns. Each company wagon was loaded as per the schematic table below.

For each gun this equated to 2,068 rounds in magazines and 2,250 rounds packed in chargers. In addition the Divisional Ammunition Column carried 2,000 rounds per gun.

A set of Carriers, Magazine Lewis .303 inch Gun (nicknamed Lewis Buckets) that buckled together containing 4 magazines each weighing a total of 36 lbs. (16.4 kg). These were introduced on November 27th 1915 (LOC 17739).  The set of 2 ‘Buckets’ was then contained in a 1917 dated metal Box Carrier (see below).

A set of 4 Pouches, Magazine, Web and 2 Braces, Magazine Web that also carried a total of 8 magazines and were worn over existing equipment and held in place by the waist strap and uniform shoulder straps. These were a vast improvement on the ‘bucket’ as hands were left free and the magazines could be removed without having to take off the carrier. These were introduced on May 28th 1917 (LOC 18892). The magazine pictured in the open pouch is a No 6.”

Edited 15 June by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Royal Artillery Territorials. Posted from Uckfield, East Sussex. 25th September 1914.   The Senior N.C.O, centre, has South African Ribbons. 

Another super photo.  I can make out a trumpeter in the front row third from right, and what looks like a carriage driver’s prize badge, also in the front row, but far right kneeling.

Edited 14 June by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 29/05/2024 at 14:11, gunnerwalker said:

Unfortunately I don’t know where it is. Nothing on the back, no photographer’s stamp and I even tried scouring the background for shop names and street signs but couldn’t pick anything out. It is a great photo, looks like a hot day to be out marching.

Is there any chance of a high-res scan of that round road sign? - I think it might say 'CENTRE' which could be French or English.

The writing on the shop front says .......ORN    OST.     There are obviously letters missing from the first part. If in the UK all I could think of were 'MORNING POST' but that's not their offices in the Strand. Or it could be something [...........]ORN  [P]OST [OFFICE] Assuming there are no letters missing from the second part, Ost is of course German for East, (but not I think in Flemish).

As I say, a clearer scan of the sign could help determine the language and offer a clue to the location.

[GWF1967]

Monmouthshire Royal Field Artillery, Territorial Force. 

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

By 1917 each British Infantry Battalion had 16 Lewis guns (Pioneer battalions had eight and Cyclist battalions had six). One section in each platoon was trained in the use of the Lewis gun and lived, fought and worked with the other three sections. With an average strength of 36 Other Ranks in the platoon the Lewis gun section consisted of 1 NCO and 8 men.

4 limbered General Service wagons for transport of Lewis guns were available for each infantry battalion one was allotted to each company for its 4 guns. Each company wagon was loaded as per the schematic table below.

For each gun this equated to 2,068 rounds in magazines and 2,250 rounds packed in chargers. In addition the Divisional Ammunition Column carried 2,000 rounds per gun.

A set of Carriers, Magazine Lewis .303 inch Gun (nicknamed Lewis Buckets) that buckled together containing 4 magazines each weighing a total of 36 lbs. (16.4 kg). These were introduced on November 27th 1915 (LOC 17739).  The set of 2 ‘Buckets’ was then contained in a 1917 dated metal Box Carrier (see below).

A set of 4 Pouches, Magazine, Web and 2 Braces, Magazine Web that also carried a total of 8 magazines and were worn over existing equipment and held in place by the waist strap and uniform shoulder straps. These were a vast improvement on the ‘bucket’ as hands were left free and the magazines could be removed without having to take off the carrier. These were introduced on May 28th 1917 (LOC 18892). The magazine pictured in the open pouch is a No 6.

Thank you very much, two splendid collections which give us a "no earlier" date than about June 1917, resting on the pouches.

Beyond that, more questions than answers.  

[gunnerwalker]

4 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Is there any chance of a high-res scan of that round road sign? - I think it might say 'CENTRE' which could be French or English.

The writing on the shop front says .......ORN    OST.     There are obviously letters missing from the first part. If in the UK all I could think of were 'MORNING POST' but that's not their offices in the Strand. Or it could be something [...........]ORN  [P]OST [OFFICE] Assuming there are no letters missing from the second part, Ost is of course German for East, (but not I think in Flemish).

As I say, a clearer scan of the sign could help determine the language and offer a clue to the location.

Unfortunately that’s the highest resolution my scanner will go. I’ve taken a photo through my loupe to see if that is any better but I think it’s just a little too out of focus for it to be clear enough.

But it looks like you were right with “ —— POST”.

Edited 14 June by gunnerwalker