Postcards

[4thGordons]

Yours is a great pic to have! Classic early war - CLLEs and Simplified patter Service Dress Jackets. Wonderful.

53 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thanks for these Chris.

am I correct in saying in the lower picture they look to have 1888 bayonets?

Converted to fit the SMLE?

I think they are actually Pattern 1903 bayonets. 

Some of them were newly manufacture and some did utilize Pattern 1888 blades but they were re-manufactured (and repatterned) with a hilt to fit the Sht LE. (The hilt is identical to the P1907 - compare those on my pics (not all that clear) to the hilts on yours with the CLLEs and P1888s) Because they were shorter and handier than the P1907 they continued to be issued to drivers etc. They were also favoured by the Indian army and many of the surviving Pattern 1903 bayonets show Indian use.

On the above pics there are a couple of other fun details (in addition to the "gor blimey" caps and driving goggles :

The standing man on the left (as we look) on the first picture, has his rifle sling "inside out" on the front loop (with the "claws" facing in to the wood instead of outwards in regulation fashion as all the others show)

On the lower picture - the man on the right (as we look) has a MkI ShtLE without a charger bridge and with the rear sight protector built into the upper handguard. (compare to the man next to him) who has a MkIII

The man on the right also appears to have non metallic buttons on his SD Jacket.

Chris

 

Edited 18 June by 4thGordons
typo

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

First mentioned in Musketry Regulations 1909 . Clothing Regulations 1914 allows for two badges per battery R.H.A - R.F.A,  and six per company R.G.A. ( AO 21/1914 ).

 Upper right arm - Instructor.

Examples.

[tankengine888]

1st Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment NCOs
(all the men are identified, will supply if requested)

 

Officers and NCOs of 'E' Company, 2nd Battalion City of London Regiment

Members of the Chinese Labour Corps, 1917
(Note the WO2, 4 wound stripes!)

 Possibly 13th Great Indian Peninsula Railway Battalion Postwar
 

8 Platoon, B Company, 'Kings Royal Rifles'

Edited 19 June by tankengine888

[tankengine888]

A squad of Coldstream Guards, at home. I have tenatively identified a few.
This is probably up Pete's alley.

W P Tolman -
8130 Private William Percy Tolman (later Corporal) (1886-1949)

G Vine -
Probably 22900 Guardsman George Vine

H W Bartlett -
Possibly 22917 Guardsman Henry William Bartlett

E C Morman -
2792 Private Eli Charles Morman (1886-1949)

C W Hartshorn -
86576 Private Cyril William Hartshorn (1898-1987)

N H Thornton -
22896 Private Norman Hardwicke Thornton (1897- after 1959)

S J Hurst -
22904 Guardsman Sidney James Hurst

W Greenaway -
8127 Corporal Walter Greenaway (Later Acting Sergeant); Section Commander
Enlisted October 1908. Arrived in France on November 11th, 1914 as a Private. Wounded September 1916 as a Lance Jack.

H Grainger -
Possibly 22910 Private Herbert Grainger

C W Sharpe -
Probably 21732 Private George William Sharpe

(T.S) F Tidman -
Probably 15087 Fred/Frank Tidman

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

1st Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment NCOs
(all the men are identified, will supply if requested)

 

Officers and NCOs of 'E' Company, 2nd Battalion City of London Regiment

Members of the Chinese Labour Corps, 1917
(Note the WO2, 4 wound stripes!)

 Possibly 13th Great Indian Peninsula Railway Battalion Postwar
 

8 Platoon, B Company, 'Kings Royal Rifles'

I don’t know where you sourced these photos Zidane but they are very fine quality images and thank you for sharing them.

Photo 1 shows a home service battalions NCOs very typically arranged with the Adjutant and Lt Colonel seated centrally (left and right respectively as we look) and all the battalion’s headquarters staff flanking them.

Looking left to right we have the Sergeant Drummer (aka Drum Major) who although a junior sergeant had the special privilege to be dressed in First Class uniform given his role as part of the battalion’s front window, its band and drums.  Next comes two of the more junior staff sergeants as their collars and cuffs are not laced, perhaps they are the shoemaker and tailor, although there’s nothing to indicate that.

Next comes the battalion’s Quarter-Master-Sergeant who at the time was the most senior of the First Class staff sergeants having taken that status after the battalion sergeant major was elevated to warrant officer in 1881.  The QMS was the Quarter-Master’s legman and factotum with responsibility for stores and equipment, including clothing.  With that in mind it’s interesting that he’s retained an older pattern (1902) tunic with its lower collar and curved front.  Notice that there’s little room for his collar badges with the lace fitted, but he’s never got around to adding the same lace to his cuffs.  His unique badge of rank and appointment comprising 4-inverted stripes with 8-pointed star over can be seen clearly.

On the other side of the two officers typically wearing frock coats is the sergeant major of battalion, with the newer tunic with its higher collar and badge of rank of plain crown.  Both collar and cuffs are richly laced and make his superior position among all the other ranks abundantly clear.

On the sergeant major’s immediate left is the Orderly-Room-Quarter-Master-Sergeant, who was the next most senior member of the battalion staff sergeants.  There’s no sign of the Band-Master, whom we might reasonably expect to have been either, on leave, or away at an engagement.

Then follows two more junior staff sergeants who could perhaps be the gymnasium sergeant and machine gun sergeant given that the signals sergeant is reclining front right and marked out by his signals flags anove the 3-stripes of sergeant.

At the end and neatly balancing the sergeant drummer from the far side is the Sergeant Instructor of Musketry, who although a Second Class staff sergeant was likewise given the distinction of First Class dress, as demonstrated by his collar and cuff lace matching that of the ORQMS.

The Armourer Sergeant AOC can be seen standing unobtrusively far left of the third row, despite the fact that he too was a member of the Battalion HQ Staff and paid almost as much as the sergeant major.  On the opposite side of the same row is the Band-Sergeant, who can be spotted via his gold laced shoulder wings.  Reclining front left is a drummer with the rank of sergeant and, given that he’s not the drum major, I imagine that he might be a lance sergeant and the corps lead drummer. 

Photo 2 shows the officers wearing the original pattern of 1902 service dress with its closed collar, twisted cord shoulder straps and cuff rank.  2nd CLR were also known as the First Surrey Rifles, a title of preeminence that thru were unwilling to given up when absorbed within the London Regiment when it was formed in 1908.

Photo 3 is one of the best photos that I think I’ve ever seen of a Chinese Labour Corps group along with its British WO and NCOs.  Notice in particular the system of rank markings adopted to distinguish those Chinese given supervisory roles.  The senior man has four inverted cuff stripes that have been neatly affixed when compared with the two upper arm stripes on a man left as we look.  Often these roles were dependent upon good levels of English rather than any particular trade.  Such men interpreted and passed on the British instructions to their men.  Chalked on the wall behind is the common epithet ‘somewhere in France’ as well as some other words adjacent that are partially obscured and tantalisingly indiscernible.

Photo 4 looks very typical of an Indian Railway Battalions NCOs and men post WW1, and shows the large number of WW1 veterans, both British, and Indian, among the railway staff who formed  such battalions.

Photo 5 intrigues me as it does not make clear which battalion of the KRR (KRCC) it refers to (especially given there were 4 regular battalions) and the group appears far too small to represent a full platoon.  I suspect they might be a representative team of the platoon concerned that had been involved in some undertaking or competition, but of course short of more information from the source of the image we’ll never know. 

Edited 19 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t know where you sourced these photos Zidane but they are very fine quality images and thank you for sharing them.

Photo 1 shows a home service battalions NCOs very typically arranged with the Adjutant and Lt Colonel seated centrally (left and right respectively as we look) and all the battalion’s headquarters staff flanking them.  Looking left to right we have the Sergeant Drummer (aka Drum Major) who although a junior sergeant had the special privilege to be dressed in First Class uniform given his role as part of the battalion’s front window, its band and drums.  Next comes two of the more junior staff sergeants as their collars and cuffs are not laced.  Next comes the battalion’s Quarter-Master-Sergeant who at the time was the most senior of the First Class staff sergeants having taken that status after the battalion sergeant major was elevated to warrant officer in 1881.  The QMS was the Quarter-Master’s legman and factotum with responsibility for stores and equipment, including clothing.  With that in mind it’s interesting that he’s retained an older pattern (1902) tunic with its lower collar and curved front.  Notice that there’s little room for his collar badges with the lace fitted, but he’s never got around to adding the same lace to his cuffs. 

Glad to hear they're good photos. They're taken from Ancestry family trees. I'll dig up more later tonight or tomorrow

[tankengine888]

(These images are of slightly higher quality, I have lowered them to 400 pixel width).

'Probably 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards' (1909)

A Gordon Highlander. This particular one was Killed in Action in October 1914

"Dress uniform, on guard. Buckingham Palace"

A Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry soldier

Army Service Corps wallah c.1912
(What's that first uniform with pockets?)

 

21st Lancers, prewar

2nd Dragoons, Scots Grey. This particular soldier was Killed in Action in May 1915. Prewar

[FROGSMILE]

On 19/06/2024 at 15:55, tankengine888 said:

(These images are of slightly higher quality, I have lowered them to 400 pixel width).

'Probably 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards' (1909)

A Gordon Highlander. This particular one was Killed in Action in October 1914

"Dress uniform, on guard. Buckingham Palace"

A Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry soldier

Army Service Corps wallah c.1912
(What's that first uniform with pockets?)

 

21st Lancers, prewar

2nd Dragoons, Scots Grey. This particular soldier was Killed in Action in May 1915. Prewar

Oh my, more super photos.

Photo 1 is indeed 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards.  I’m very intrigued by the aiguillettes as up until the 2nd Boer War they were a feature of only the band, trumpeters and kettle drummers, but several photos of Dragoon Guards seen in the forum recently suggest that they were probably extended to all ranks before WW1.  I’d like to learn more about this.

Photo 2 shows a Gordon Highlander in other ranks levee order for highland dancing, etc.

Photo 3 is an uncharacteristically scruffy looking private of Grenadier Guards wearing Guard/Drill order.  I suspect it might’ve been taken after he had dismounted from the guard rather than before guard mount.

Photo 4 private of the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry dressed for walking-out (note swagger stick) is interesting, as his Slade Wallace belt is unwhitened, which suggests the later, 1903 pattern made from smooth brown leather, rather than the ‘buff’ (meaning sueded) leather.

Photo 5 is an Army Service Corps Private wearing the undress blue serge frock with breast pockets first introduced circa 1898.

Photo 6 is of the same ASC soldier dressed in tunic and girdle (striped waistbelt) for walking-out order.  On his right upper arm can be seen a collar and harness makers trade badge.

Photo 7 a private of the Empress of India’s 21st Lancers private in dismounted dress for walking-out.

Photo 8 a 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) in Review Order, although I cannot see if mounted (knee boots and breeches) or dismounted (pantaloons and short wellington boots).

Afternote:  I think that photos 7 and 8 are possibly of the same man, suggesting a transfer perhaps.

Edited 20 June by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

15 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

...I think they are actually Pattern 1903 bayonets.  Some of them were newly manufacture and some did utilize Pattern 1888 blades but they were re-manufactured (and repatterned) with a hilt to fit the Sht LE. (The hilt is identical to the P1907...

Worth noting Chris that although the 1903 and 1907 Pattern Bayonets are interchangeable on the SMLE the hilts themselves do differ from each other in a number of respects, eg:

[4thGordons]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Worth noting Chris that although the 1903 and 1907 Pattern Bayonets are interchangeable on the SMLE the hilts themselves do differ from each other in a number of respects, eg:

Yes, fair point and quite correct. I was thinking of rifle fitment and visually in photos -- but even in the latter I suspect the bump on the crosspiece of the p1903 might be distinguishable so I stand corrected - thanks.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

And while on the subject of the P1903 bayonet, they were also a common issue to the RE during the war. I have items marked to wartime raised Field Companies that served on the Somme.

Cheers,  SS 

[Bob Davies]

19 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Yours is a great pic to have! Classic early war - CLLEs and Simplified patter Service Dress Jackets. Wonderful.

I think they are actually Pattern 1903 bayonets. 

Some of them were newly manufacture and some did utilize Pattern 1888 blades but they were re-manufactured (and repatterned) with a hilt to fit the Sht LE. (The hilt is identical to the P1907 - compare those on my pics (not all that clear) to the hilts on yours with the CLLEs and P1888s) Because they were shorter and handier than the P1907 they continued to be issued to drivers etc. They were also favoured by the Indian army and many of the surviving Pattern 1903 bayonets show Indian use.

On the above pics there are a couple of other fun details (in addition to the "gor blimey" caps and driving goggles :

The standing man on the left (as we look) on the first picture, has his rifle sling "inside out" on the front loop (with the "claws" facing in to the wood instead of outwards in regulation fashion as all the others show)

On the lower picture - the man on the right (as we look) has a MkI ShtLE without a charger bridge and with the rear sight protector built into the upper handguard. (compare to the man next to him) who has a MkIII

The man on the right also appears to have non metallic buttons on his SD Jacket.

Chris

 

Thanks Chris,

some subtle differences which we need to know about.

Thanks too for your info @Andrew Upton and @shippingsteel

[poona guard]

On 16/06/2024 at 04:21, 4thGordons said:

To whom are you referring? The Gordons in my pic have CLLEs (charger loading lee enfields) as, I believe, have the men in Gunnerwalkers pic

The charger bridge and the foresight protectors were not fitted on MLEs or MLMs

Chris

 

 

Apologies, my mistake.

[tankengine888]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Afternoon:  I think that photos 7 and 8 are possibly of the same man, suggesting a transfer perhaps.

Different men, they just look similar.

[tankengine888]

Either Dragoons or Lancers. This particular fella was Killed in Action in 1918.

Various regiments

Members of the Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Regimental Boxing Championship of India, Royal Welch Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion Boxing Tournament, Winter 1909

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Either Dragoons or Lancers. This particular fella was Killed in Action in 1918.

Various regiments

Members of the Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Regimental Boxing Championship of India, Royal Welch Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion Boxing Tournament, Winter 1909

Photo 1 is a private of the 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) and has been posted a few times including just a few weeks ago.  He wears the aiguillettes originally worn only by musicians as I mentioned in relation to your recent post containing several cavalrymen.

Photo 2 is familiar too I think and appears to show attendees at a training school.  All those present are NCOs from lance corporals up to sergeants.  The distinctive building with it’s balconies seems familiar and the generally relaxed demeanour of the soldiers and the parade canes of the two sergeants suggests somewhere in Britain at one of the regional command schools.  Perhaps a forum member might recognise it.

Photo 3 shows an officer with what appears to be his NCOs and has the look of a battalion’s specialists of one nature or another, perhaps machine gun section as some badges in laurel wreath can be seen. One veteran corporal with medal ribbons and the look of a regular has three wound stripes, so the image must date from 1916 onward and the presence of several soft forage caps suggest a 1917 date.  It seems likely to be a second-line battalion based somewhere around the Yarmouth area (Afternote: the 2/4th Denbighshire and 2/5th Flintshire TF moved there In October 1917).

Photo 4 appears to be a typical example of an indoors group portrait of four, RWF full corporals.  No headdress, but the shoulder titles are clearly discernible.  They are all neatly turned out with tailored collars to present a smart, upright appearance.

Photo 5 shows I think men and officers of the 2nd Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers pre WW1, who I recall from Frank Richards’s seminal book ‘Old Soldier Sahib’ were participants in the Boxing championship of India.  Once again these images have good quality resolution, thank you for sharing them.  Perhaps @Muerrisch will recognise the two central figures.  On the left is I think the adjutant and on the right the bandmaster, who is wearing an earlier version of the forage cap that was oft described at the time as the ‘naval [style] cap’.  Unlike the officer adjacent to him it features a bullion wire badge that was in the process of being replaced by the rich silver and gilt badge worn by the captain.

Edited 20 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Two interesting pictures (RWF), that being the fact of the first instance I've seen a cap badge on a pith helmet as well as cap badge on a bearskin

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Two interesting pictures (RWF), that being the fact of the first instance I've seen a cap badge on a pith helmet as well as cap badge on a bearskin

Yes, two more super images, thank you.

The upper photo shows a private with Wolseley pattern helmet and regimental cap badge, as well as cloth shoulder titles on the upper arm of his service dress jacket, which seems to have leather type GS buttons.  The helmet with SD suggests a soldier about to depart for overseas, and the ghostly appearance of family members in the top left corner is typical of a photo presented by a photographic studio as a family’s memorial for a soldier KIA during WW1.

The lower photo shows two sections at the Regimental Depot and Headquarters in the Hightown barracks at Wrexham.  The men in full dress are probably mounting the guard.  The soldiers in SD are wearing the waist belt ammunition pouches from the 1903 bandolier equipment that preceded the issue of 1908 canvas web equipment.  They are thus in ‘drill order’.

Edited 20 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

The lower photo shows two platoons at the Regimental Depot and Headquarters in the Hightown barracks at Wrexham.

Correct! It was taken in Wrexham in 1907

[poona guard]

Perhaps he is one of the Garrison Battalions the RWF formed for overseas service and he is just being wistful about missing them?

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Perhaps he is one of the Garrison Battalions the RWF formed for overseas service and he is just being wistful about missing them?

Possibly yes David, there were no doubt a variety of reasons why photos resonant with sentiments of yearning for loved one’s were produced.  Given the losses, though, I suspect that the photographic memorials for lost family members were in a majority.

Edited 20 June by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 19/06/2024 at 16:14, FROGSMILE said:

Oh my, more super photos.

Indeed, first class.
Makes a refreshing change from some of the blurred phone-grab snaps that are often presented.
(Not by yourself, obviously!)

[tankengine888]

A jolly band of 20th KRRC men

 

Here's another- I don't know what it is. On enlistment?

 

RND. A bit low quality but I thought the 'Churchill (Nelson) Light Horse' sign was worth a share

Edited 21 June by tankengine888

[tankengine888]

8 hours ago, poona guard said:

Perhaps he is one of the Garrison Battalions the RWF formed for overseas service and he is just being wistful about missing them?

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Possibly yes David, there were no doubt a variety of reasons why photos resonant with sentiments of yearning for loved one’s were produced.  Given the losses, though, I suspect that the photographic memorials for lost family members were in a majority.

He was I think. I'd have to go over my search history to find out, but I can definitely recall that the RWF with the family members on the side did survive.

 

Here's a bonus image (clarification: unrelated to the RWF soldier)

[tankengine888]

So, this is slightly off-topic (era-wise; c.1901) but I think it's a cracker all the same. I can also add that some of the officers below did fight in the First War.

(Back row, second from left; Lt Chichester RF looks awfully like Errol Flynn from Dawn Patrol?)

Group of Imperial Army officers visiting South Australia during the visit of the Duke of York / From left to right: Lieut. Chichester; Somerset Light Infantry, Lieut. Chichester; Royal Fusileers, Mr. Owen Smyth; Superintendent of Public Buildings, Lieut. Davies; Middlesex Volunteers, Lieut. Dougall; 79th Cameron Highlanders, Lieut. Bernard; Rifle Brigade, Capt. Powell; Royal Engineer, Mr. Oliphant; South Australian Militia, Lieut.-Colonel Hampson; South Australian Militia, Hon. R.W. Foster; Commissioner for Public Works, Lieut. McLean; Army Service Corps, Lieut. Baring; Coldstream Guards, Lieut. Collins; King's Dragoon Guards, Lieut. Hyde; Royal Army Medical Corps, Lieut. Sutherland; Norfolk Militia, Mr. Calder; Reporter

Edited 21 June by tankengine888