Postcards

[tankengine888]

Courtesy Ancestry

Northamptonshire Yeomanry, May 1913

4th Signal Coy, RE 1912

Captioned as an Army Shooting Team apparently. Could it be officers on a course instead?

[6RRF]

5 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Captioned as an Army Shooting Team apparently. Could it be officers on a course instead?

Certainly looks like a course. The sergeant at centre has a Small Arms School badge while the officer sitting at front has a range-finder. 

Incidentally that tag bottom left looks like the photo was taken at Strensall, near York

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Captioned as an Army Shooting Team apparently. Could it be officers on a course instead?

They are TF officers undergoing a typical ‘short course’ of the type run specifically for Territorials prewar and during peacetime in general.  Regular officers attended long courses, but Territorials weren’t able to do that due to their own work and family commitments so the training was either modularised, or truncated.  In this case I think that they’re probably officers appointed to command their battalion Machine Gun sections (two Maxim guns in 1914).  The Barr and Stroud rangefinder was a part of the standard regular MG officers course and in this case I believe that the TF officers are attending a short course** covering the range finder alone.  The instructor is from the School of Musketry.  The Small Arms School was formed in 1926, but merged with the separate Machine Gun School, with a new cap badge designed and issued, in 1929#.

** the short courses have never ceased and continue to run today for the auxiliary elements of the Army Reserve.

# I served in that corps following transfer to it’s permanent cadre between 1984 and 1990 and had the opportunity to see many old course photos that stimulated my interest in history.  We ran similar courses at Support Weapons Wing Netheravon in between regular courses throughout the year. At the height of the then Cold War, the pace was frenetic and unrelenting and the Territorials played their part in that.  As well as the ‘short courses’, they regularly attended annual weapons concentrations at major ranges throughout the U.K.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They are TF officers undergoing a typical ‘short course’ of the type run specifically for Territorials prewar and during peacetime in general.  Regular officers attended long courses, but Territorials weren’t able to do that due to their own work and family commitments so the training was either modularised, or truncated.  In this case I think that they’re probably officers appointed to command their battalion Machine Gun sections (two Maxim guns in 1914).  The Barr and Stroud rangefinder was a part of the standard regular MG officers course and in this case I believe that the TF officers are attending a short course** covering the range finder alone.  The instructor is from the School of Musketry.

In the recent thread we had on a picture of a Regular Army Officers course at Hythe, it became clear that both rife and machine gun courses were being offered under the general heading of Musketry, with attendees usually doing one followed by the other. And as we saw when looking at some of the NCO instructors and attendees they were very proficient at both.

A very quick look at Harts for 1914 and the August 1914 British Army Monthly list - I'm assuming from the uniforms photograph potentially from 1912 onwards - shows TF Battalions usually with at least one Instructor of Musketry and sometimes two.

And a spot check of a sample of the more uncommon surnames shows on their MiCs mainly either a Machine Gun unit, (MGC or Guards), or RAMC connection, with the odd one who died before the MGC came into being. So if it is a pre-war picture then might be a very small pool of potential candidates for the men pictured here.

I may be a glutton for punishment, but is it possible to identify the capbadges of the attendees?

BTW are the three officers at the back, starting from the right hand end, and the one seated right hand end, suitably equipped for the wearing of a sword on their left hip or is that intended for something else?

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 25 June by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, PRC said:

In the recent thread we had on a picture of a Regular Army Officers course at Hythe, it became clear that both rife and machine gun courses were being offered under the general heading of Musketry, with attendees usually doing one followed by the other. And as we saw when looking at some of the NCO instructors and attendees they were very proficient at both.

A very quick look at Harts for 1914 and the August 1914 British Army Monthly list - I'm assuming from the uniforms photograph potentially from 1912 onwards - shows TF Battalions usually with at least one Instructor of Musketry and sometimes two.

And a spot check of a sample of the more uncommon surnames shows on their MiCs mainly either a Machine Gun unit, (MGC or Guards), or RAMC connection, with the odd one who died before the MGC came into being. So if it is a pre-war picture then might be a very small pool of potential candidates for the men pictured here.

I may be a glutton for punishment, but is it possible to identify the capbadges of the attendees?

BTW are the three officers at the back, starting from the right hand end, and the one seated right hand end, suitably equipped for the wearing of a sword on their left hip or is that intended for something else?

Cheers,
Peter

Peter you are correct in your inference that during the early period of the war there was no separate machine gun course and training on the Maxim Gun then issued was conducted at Hythe.  There are well known photographs showing this.  The outbreak of war required a significant increase in the number of training establishments and it was then that satellite schools (my term) were established within each of the regional administrative Commands.

Strensall I think from memory was probably one of those for Northern Command, but I will need to check.  Incidentally it still exists as a similarly regional satellite to Warminster (which replaced Hythe and eventually Netheravon too), but such establishments are small in peacetime and referred to as Training Teams.  All these satellites, then and now had / have an umbilical cord to their parent school (and de facto depot), where matters of policy and the posting of instructors are coordinated.

As part of this need for expansion the Maxim Guns were at first replaced by twice as many Vickers Guns per battalion (less than was asked for) and the gun’s importance became overwhelmingly evident to commanding officers who learned the hard way in France and the Mediterranean Theatres.  Accordingly it was decided to set up devoted MG Schools to properly focus on this rapidly expanding role.

The first such dedicated school was established at Bisley if I remember rightly and focused on creating mobile guns mounted in vehicles under the enthusiastic support of the Royal Artillery, but with others also involved.  The following year the MGC was established with cavalry and infantry branches and the principal MG School established at Grantham in order to cope with the exponential growth in deployment of the weapon.

At the end of the war a rapidly shrinking Army moved its MG School to Seaford, which had been the CEF MG school and so was typically generously endowed and equipped.  Eventually belt tightening meant even that had to be given up and, because the reopened Cavalry School (1919) was conveniently merging with its RA equivalent and moving out to Weedon, the MG School moved in to Netheravon and replaced them (typically saving money).  It was from there that it eventually merged with the School of Musketry as explained, and the infantry battalions converted wholesale to MG units were trained there leading up to WW2.

Then followed a period when the MG replacement returned to the main school alongside musketry training, until following lessons learned from the Falklands War, it was re established at Netheravon during my time there.  Once again the wheel had turned full circle - via old lessons relearned - as so often happens.

As regards the cap badges of officers in the subject photo, if someone would be kind enough to number them I’ll do my best with tentative ID, but unless a better scan can be found I can already see that some are completely indiscernible.

 

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

but unless a better scan can be found I can already see that some are completely indiscernible.

No better scan available. A quick image search shows no other copy.

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, PRC said:

BTW are the three officers at the back, starting from the right hand end, and the one seated right hand end, suitably equipped for the wearing of a sword on their left hip or is that intended for something else?

Yes they are indeed wearing sword frogs. That along with the location suggests a photo taken in either, 1914 or 1915.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes they are indeed wearing sword frogs. That along with the location suggests a photo taken in either, 1914 or 1915.

Highland officer on left sitting might have a wound stripe (suggesting 1916 or later)?

 

Edited 25 June by tankengine888

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Highland officer on left sitting might have a wound stripe (suggesting 1916 or later)?

 

Yes I think your right Zedine, well spotted.  It’s odd to still have sword frogs fitted as late as 1916, as the date now seems likely to be.  I can only imagine that the officers concerned had been drilling previously, either in their unit, or as part of a training course, and had simply left the frog fitted to the belt for convenience.

Its a better fit for Strensall too, as I cannot recall what year the regional schools for each Command were established. They were certainly up and running in 1916. 

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think your right Zedine, well spotted.  It’s odd to still have sword frogs fitted as late as 1916 as it now seems likely to be.  I can only imagine that the officers concerned had been drilling previously either in their unit, or as part of a training course, and had simply left the frog fitted to the belt for convenience.  

I think I'm shooting down my own theory of a wound stripe..

Take a look at this manipulated image (I made it a bit sharper, brightness, etc), it appears to be a triangle of sorts?

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

I think I'm shooting down my own theory of a wound stripe..

Take a look at this manipulated image (I made it a bit sharper, brightness, etc), it appears to be a triangle of sorts?

No I think that’s just a fold in the cloth.  Your suggestion of wound stripe was a good call.  Very likely the issue type formed from woven wire on cloth and so flexible.  He’s the only captain among subalterns and so likely to have some considerable service in by comparison.  It is such a jump in rank (captains often adjutants or commanding companies) that I wonder if he might even be on the instructional staff.  His regiment is King’s Own Scottish Borderers (T.F.).

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

As regards the cap badges of officers in the subject photo, if someone would be kind enough to number them I’ll do my best with tentative ID, but unless a better scan can be found I can already see that some are completely indiscernible.

I've taken the liberty to number them.. Pete can ofcourse renumber them later with a different font, style etc, but for now I've put the numbers to the right of the person's head

Edited 25 June by tankengine888

[aodhdubh]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it’s patrol uniform and probably blue, as the scarlet was replaced by the frock-coat in 1904, and unlike the blue it had a faced collar anyway.  The slightly wider Sam Browne waist-belt and the Austrian type field service cap together suggests a period just after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.

Thanks very much. It's irritatingly difficult to discern anything to indicate the unit (knowing the unit would narrow down the date)....resolution is not high enough to look for a badge on the sword hilt. Cap badge is hidden. No facings...

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Pete can ofcourse renumber them later with a different font, style etc,

More than happy to share the load - certainly don't want to claim a monopoly on photo numbering

If we are going for 1916 pr later, then could they be a mix. My dodgy eyesight thinks there are potentially "T" collar badges on 2, 7 and 8, but not the others.

Could 1 be West Yorkshre Regiment?

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks very much. It's irritatingly difficult to discern anything to indicate the unit (knowing the unit would narrow down the date)....resolution is not high enough to look for a badge on the sword hilt. Cap badge is hidden. No facings...

Yes it’s frustrating and for a long time collar badges were not worn on officers patrol uniforms.  It wasn’t until between the wars that they were gradually adopted.  I cannot seen anything to give a clue as to the regiment other than the date.  The caps were replaced from 1900 onward.  What units were stationed there before and after the 2nd Boer War?  At least we can rule anything Scottish out.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 24/06/2024 at 09:04, tankengine888 said:

An RFA Gunner, missing a finger..

It looks like it at first glance, but it's a peculiatity caused by leaning on the table using only his middle finger to bear weight.

Try it, all the other fingers flex automatically.

The proximal segment of his index finger is there, it is just vsible.
His thumb probably  isn't visible as his hand is pressed tightly against his jacket.

[tankengine888]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

More than happy to share the load - certainly don't want to claim a monopoly on photo numbering

If we are going for 1916 pr later, then could they be a mix. My dodgy eyesight thinks there are potentially "T" collar badges on 2, 7 and 8, but not the others.

Could 1 be West Yorkshre Regiment?

I can see a T on 1, 2, 5, 7 and possibly 8.. that's with my terrible eyesight!

4 is, I think, KOYLI

Also, I have a name for you. 3 is 2/Lt George Clarence Knowles, DoW June 10 1917 with 3rd (att. 9th) Btn Yorkshire Hussars

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

I've taken the liberty to number them.. Pete can ofcourse renumber them later with a different font, style etc, but for now I've put the numbers to the right of the person's head

1. Prince of Wales’s Own (West Yorkshire Regiment).

2. Indiscernible.

3. Princess Alexandra of Wales’s Own (Yorkshire Regiment).

4. Durham Light Infantry (OSDB).

5. King’s Own Scottish Borderers.

6. School of Musketry.

7. Possibly Wiltshire Regiment (very unsure).

8. Possibly Worcestershire Regiment.

I am confident that they are all Territorial Force, less the instructor from the School of Musketry.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

It looks like it at first glance, but it's a peculiatity caused by leaning on the table using only his middle finger to bear weight.

Try it, all the other fingers flex automatically.

The proximal segment of his index finger is there, it is just vsible.
His thumb probably  isn't visible as his hand is pressed tightly against his jacket.

I see it now. The caption of the photo read-
'Thomas is shown as being in the RFA and it is noticeable that he may have lost his left index finger at some point or it could be the way he is holding it in this picture. He did sustain at least two injuries during military service.'
Hence why I quickly (and, evidently wrongly) assumed he was missing a finger.

[aodhdubh]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it’s frustrating and for a long time collar badges were not worn on officers patrol uniforms.  It wasn’t until between the wars that they were gradually adopted.  I cannot seen anything to give a clue as to the regiment other than the date.  The caps were replaced from 1900 onward.  What units were stationed there before and after the 2nd Boer War?  At least we can rule anything Scottish out.

Bermuda Online had the most thorough list, but has taken that offline. It's still available archived on Archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20140821111911/http://www.bermuda-online.org/britarmy.htm

 

Immediately up to the 2nd Boer War, there were two infantry battalions spread about Bermuda, three during the war, and reduced to one as part of the post-war cutbacks. Also companies of Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, RAMC, and there was also RASC, RAOC, RAPC, and doubtless other supporting corps and garrison staff, plus militia artillery and rifle volunteers.

Edited 25 June by aodhdubh

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, aodhdubh said:

Bermuda Online had the most thorough list, but has taken that offline. It's still available archived on Archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20140821111911/http://www.bermuda-online.org/britarmy.htm

What a shame that one has to go to the web archive to access such a dedicated study, I’d have thought the island could have added it to their own online historical resources.

Looking at the regiment’s straddling the 2nd Boer War we can rule out the West Indies Regiment and the Royal Fusiliers.  The most likely then is 4th Battalion of the Worcestershire Regiment.

[aodhdubh]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

What a shame that one has to go to the web archive to access such a dedicated study, I’d have thought the island could have added it to their own online historical resources.

Looking at the regiment’s straddling the 2nd Boer War we can rule out the West Indies Regiment and the Royal Fusiliers.  The most likely then is 4th Battalion of the Worcestershire Regiment.

Thanks...and yes, hopefully Bermuda Online will restore that page. There are plenty of offline sources for that information, but nothing comparable online. There was a bit of an emergency with manpower at the time...the West India Regiment was normally only used to garrison the West Indies (which did not include Bermuda, which was in British North America...all that was left in the region other than Newfoundland, following the 1867 confederation of Canada) and Africa, but the 2nd Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment, which had been posted to Bermuda in 1897 for the usual three years was hurried away to south Africa on the outbreak of hostilities and, with no other unit available, the WIR was sent temporarily to Bermuda, but was soon replaced. The reason for the addition of a third battalion was Bermuda being designated as a prisoner of war camp for Boer POWs. It was thought Afrikaners would be unruly if guarded by black West Indians, hence the additional battalion, 4th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment, arrived with the POWs and remained as camp guards.

Edited 25 June by aodhdubh

[aodhdubh]

20 hours ago, poona guard said:

Probably the TF RGA unit of the East Riding of Yorkshire

On the subject of TF...am I correct in thinking the rifles in the background are LLE, not SMLE?

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks...and yes, hopefully Bermuda Online will restore that page. There are plenty of offline sources for that information, but nothing comparable online. There was a bit of an emergency with manpower at the time...the West India Regiment was normally only used to garrison the West Indies (which did not include Bermuda, which was in British North America...all that was left in the region other than Newfoundland, following the 1867 confederation of Canada) and Africa, but the 2nd Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment, which had been posted to Bermuda in 1897 for the usual three years was hurried away to south Africa on the outbreak of hostilities and, with no other unit available, the WIR was sent temporarily to Bermuda, but was soon replaced. The reason for the addition of a third battalion was Bermuda being designated as a prisoner of war camp for Boer POWs. It was thought Afrikaners would be unruly if guarded by black West Indians, hence the additional battalion, 4th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment, arrived with the POWs and remained as camp guards.

The lady’s fashion is an area we should not ignore.  She’s too advanced looking for 1904 and more akin to 1914 (big sailor collars, etc.).

The officers are a little unusually dressed with what appear to be dark blue puttees that were not common in British units after the turn of the century, but previously used in India by some units including the Royal Garrison Artillery for frontier dress.  That along with the older pattern Sam Browne waist-belt makes me wonder if they might be Bermudan auxiliaries.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Courtesy Ancestry

Caterham, Surrey. Cpl. F. Jollands' Squad, Coldstream Guards

5th (Back) Row: T. Woodier, B. Powell, J. Ford, J. Wright
4th Row: T. Pragnall, C. Beesley, E. Lowell, H. Crowther, W. Rae, A. Holden, D. Robinson.
3d Row: W. Birchall, J. Murphy, A. Reeves, J. Curry, G. Baker, J. North, A. Green, M. Livick.
2nd Row:J. McLennan, G. Dunning, J. Norton, J. Estill, Cpl. Kemp, A. Vale, N. Smith, S. Yates, W. Wilson.
1st (Front) Row: (T.S.) Jones, J. Scott, F. Lennard, O. Egerton, Clp. F. JOLLANDS, C.S.M. Clarke, A. Fowles, W. Atkinson, G. Claridge, (T.S.) Threlfall.

 

Captioned- "This is the rag-time squad"

 

Alot of badges. Later won the MM in France and Flanders.

 

RFC Wallah

 

A Lance Jack sporting 4 overseas chevrons (1 red, 3 blue) and a Lewis Gunner qual

 

Staff Sarn't RE

 

A Corporal with an 'RP' Armband

 

The good ol' Sergeants

 

CSM, Hussars

 

4 Soldiers