Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Courtesy Ancestry

Caterham, Surrey. Cpl. F. Jollands' Squad, Coldstream Guards

5th (Back) Row: T. Woodier, B. Powell, J. Ford, J. Wright
4th Row: T. Pragnall, C. Beesley, E. Lowell, H. Crowther, W. Rae, A. Holden, D. Robinson.
3d Row: W. Birchall, J. Murphy, A. Reeves, J. Curry, G. Baker, J. North, A. Green, M. Livick.
2nd Row:J. McLennan, G. Dunning, J. Norton, J. Estill, Cpl. Kemp, A. Vale, N. Smith, S. Yates, W. Wilson.
1st (Front) Row: (T.S.) Jones, J. Scott, F. Lennard, O. Egerton, Clp. F. JOLLANDS, C.S.M. Clarke, A. Fowles, W. Atkinson, G. Claridge, (T.S.) Threlfall.

 

Captioned- "This is the rag-time squad"

 

Alot of badges. Later won the MM in France and Flanders.

 

RFC Wallah

 

A Lance Jack sporting 4 overseas chevrons (1 red, 3 blue) and a Lewis Gunner qual

 

Staff Sarn't RE

 

A Corporal with an 'RP' Armband

 

The good ol' Sergeants

 

CSM, Hussars

 

4 Soldiers

 

Another eclectic mix!

Photo 1.  It’s quite rare to see a warrant officer class II in these squad photos.  He has a bespoke tailored SD jacket and his beautifully enamelled badge can clearly be seen.

Photo 2.  This shows a group of Territorial Force Royal Engineers outside an accommodation hut.  Perhaps trainee carpenters given the wood saw.  The man seated on floor at front wears the canvas duck fatigue suit issued to all ranks below sergeant for manual work likely to soil uniforms.

Photo 3.  This veteran cavalryman from the 7th Dragoon Guards has a lot of skill-at-arms badges as you say, plus two good conduct badges for 5-years blemish free regular service.  He wears marksman, best swordsman in troop and best lancer in regiment.  The dragoons and dragoon guards front rank in each squadron or troop carried lances to add impact to their weight on any collision course with enemy formations.  As a heavy cavalryman his frock would be scarlet.

Photo 4.  This is a most unusual photo of a RFC man in so-called maternity jacket, in that I’ve never seen that garment with three wound stripes, and two good conduct badges for 5-years is also relatively rare in images.  That is perhaps in part because the corps was not long formed before WW1, so it may be that some of his service was prior to transfer, or it’s also possible that he was absorbed from the RE Balloon Section.

Photo 5.  This shows a Royal Field Artillery Gun ‘Layer’ rather than Lewis Gunner, whose badge was LG in wreath.

Photo 6.  This shows a Royal Engineers sergeant rather than staff sergeant, the SNCO arm badge (universal grenade) was allocated to this elite corps in 1881. 

Photo 7. A typical infantry battalions Provost Corporal.  It was common for regular and TF battalions to add a collar, or cap badge to the wristlet, or armband. 

Photo 8. A group of RE sergeants towards the end of the war, during which period it became a standing order that respirators in haversacks were to be carried at all times.

Photo 9.  This WOII with two wound stripes is serving with the Camel Corps as evidenced by his collar badges. 

Photo 10. A cheerful looking group of four infantrymen towards the end of the war.  One Queen’s, one Royal Sussex, one Bedfordshire and one Royal Fusiliers.  Perhaps a post Armistice’survivors photo’ given their clearly relaxed disposition.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Courtesy Ancestry

Northamptonshire Yeomanry, May 1913

4th Signal Coy, RE 1912

Captioned as an Army Shooting Team apparently. Could it be officers on a course instead?

There must have been a shortage of Northamptonshire Yeomanry cap badges by the look of it. Two men without cap badges and two wearing right-hand collar badges on their caps.         Pete.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, tankengine888 said:

Also, I have a name for you. 3 is 2/Lt George Clarence Knowles, DoW June 10 1917 with 3rd (att. 9th) Btn Yorkshire Hussars

Page 8028, London Gazette 15th August, 1916. " The undermentioned Gentlemen Cadets from the R.Mil. Coll. to be 2nd Lts, 16th August 1916.....
Yorks. R.  George Clarence Knowles" https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29708/page/8028/data.pdf

Cuffs aren't visible, but is that possibly a pip on his shoulder?
Given the ground conditions and light, possibly late summer \ early autumn 1916?

There is another picture of George on the Brighton College Remembers website, along with an obituary from the contemporary college magazine.

G.C. Knowles entered Durnford House in January, 1914; was made House Prefect in 1915. He passed the London Matriculation while at the College, and entered Sandhurst at Easter, 1916. He did very well at Sandhurst and was gazetted to the 3rd Battalion Yorkshire Regiment. He went to France, attached to the 9th Battalion, and quickly earned a reputation which his gallant death nobly justified. His father has very kindly sent us copied of many letters from officers and others who knew him.  We venture to quote an extract from one which gives a detailed account of how he died: "In difficult times in trenches and when at rest behind the lines he was always doing something for the care of his platoon, and his boldness and absolute disregard of danger when in action was superb. You will be glad to know he died the most glorious death imaginable. He was bringing in one of his men from the open (the man had been badly wounded) when he was shot through the arm and fell. He got up again and tried to drag the man in, when he was shot through the shoulder. After a few minutes he once again tried to drag in the wounded man, when he received a bullet in the abdomen."  A senior officer writes: - "Your son was one of the best and most gallant fellows it has ever been my privilege to meet; we all loved him and his loss will be keenly felt. He died, as he would have wished to die, from wounds received in the attempt to save the life of one of his men, an attempt in which he was successful." https://www.brightoncollegeremembers.com/roll-of-honour/1884

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, PRC said:

Page 8028, London Gazette 15th August, 1916. " The undermentioned Gentlemen Cadets from the R.Mil. Coll. to be 2nd Lts, 16th August 1916.....
Yorks. R.  George Clarence Knowles" https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29708/page/8028/data.pdf

Cuffs aren't visible, but is that possibly a pip on his shoulder?
Given the ground conditions and light, possibly late summer \ early autumn 1916?

There is another picture of George on the Brighton College Remembers website, along with an obituary from the contemporary college magazine.

G.C. Knowles entered Durnford House in January, 1914; was made House Prefect in 1915. He passed the London Matriculation while at the College, and entered Sandhurst at Easter, 1916. He did very well at Sandhurst and was gazetted to the 3rd Battalion Yorkshire Regiment. He went to France, attached to the 9th Battalion, and quickly earned a reputation which his gallant death nobly justified. His father has very kindly sent us copied of many letters from officers and others who knew him.  We venture to quote an extract from one which gives a detailed account of how he died: "In difficult times in trenches and when at rest behind the lines he was always doing something for the care of his platoon, and his boldness and absolute disregard of danger when in action was superb. You will be glad to know he died the most glorious death imaginable. He was bringing in one of his men from the open (the man had been badly wounded) when he was shot through the arm and fell. He got up again and tried to drag the man in, when he was shot through the shoulder. After a few minutes he once again tried to drag in the wounded man, when he received a bullet in the abdomen."  A senior officer writes: - "Your son was one of the best and most gallant fellows it has ever been my privilege to meet; we all loved him and his loss will be keenly felt. He died, as he would have wished to die, from wounds received in the attempt to save the life of one of his men, an attempt in which he was successful." https://www.brightoncollegeremembers.com/roll-of-honour/1884

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Excellent research Peter, I believe that’s him alright in the photo.  Yorkshire Hussars and 9th are contradictory and so perhaps a red herring.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The lady’s fashion is an area we should not ignore.  She’s too advanced looking for 1904 and more akin to 1914.  The officers are a little unusually dressed with what appear to be dark blue puttees that were not common in British units after the turn of the century, but previously used in India by some units including the Royal Garrison Artillery for frontier dress.  That along with the older pattern Sam Browne waist-belt makes me wonder if they might be Bermudan auxiliaries.

Thanks. I'm not familiar enough with women's fashions, but thought this was likely post-1900 and pre-1920s. Bermuda has conservative tendencies, though. I do not know if officers of the part-time units wore patrols at this point. Other Ranks in the Bermuda Militia Artillery certainly had them from the 1930s, though the cost was deducted from their pay. Officers may have had them earlier, but at this period I have only seen photographs of them in blue dress with red facings, or in khaki serge or cotton drills, depending on the weather. The Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps generally only had khaki serge or drills at this period...there was a rifle green full dress, but I have not seen photographs of it at this period. Both units, though militia and volunteer, were Imperial corps, funded by the War Office as part of the British Army, and the War Office had responsibility for clothing....the tendency seemed towards commonalisation with the regulars in the years between the 2nd Boer and First World Wars, with unique regimental items pretty much reduced to buttons and badges by the start of the war, hence their orders of dress dwindling to khaki.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks. I'm not familiar enough with women's fashions, but thought this was likely post-1900 and pre-1920s. Bermuda has conservative tendencies, though. I do not know if officers of the part-time units wore patrols at this point. Other Ranks in the Bermuda Militia Artillery certainly had them from the 1930s, though the cost was deducted from their pay. Officers may have had them earlier, but at this period I have only seen photographs of them in blue dress with red facings, or in khaki serge or cotton drills, depending on the weather. The Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps generally only had khaki serge or drills at this period...there was a rifle green full dress, but I have not seen photographs of it at this period. Both units, though militia and volunteer, were Imperial corps, funded by the War Office as part of the British Army, and the War Office had responsibility for clothing....the tendency seemed towards commonalisation with the regulars in the years between the 2nd Boer and First World Wars, with unique regimental items pretty much reduced to buttons and badges by the start of the war, hence their orders of dress dwindling to khaki.

Yes it’s true that blue patrols was more a regular army thing, the TF in Britain rarely purchased them as they were dress for in barracks daily routine and so not really needed by auxiliaries.

The lady is definitely wearing a fashion much closer to 1914 than 1904.  I recall that the Newfoundland Regiment wore blue puttees.  Also, might they be a Canadian regiment, I remember you mentioned them before?  I realise that Newfoundland was outside the Canadian Dominion at that time.  Canadian militia units did seem to favour blue patrols even though not regulars.  If anything they had a greater appetite for Imperial trappings than Britain following the Boer War.  To this day they have more individual regiments still in scarlet full dress than the U.K. 

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it’s true that blue patrols was more a regular army thing, the TF in Britain rarely purchased them as they were dress for in barracks daily routine and so not really needed by auxiliaries.

The lady is definitely wearing a fashion much closer to 1914 than 1904.  I recall that the Newfoundland Regiment wore blue puttees.  Also, might they be a Canadian regiment, I remember you mentioned them before?  I realise that Newfoundland was outside the Canadian Dominion at that time.  Canadian militia units did seem to favour blue patrols even though not regulars.  If anything they had a greater appetite for Imperial trappings than Britain following the Boer War.  To this day they have more individual regiments in scarlet than the U.K. 

Bermuda's garrison was technically part of Nova Scotia's until 1867, when Bermuda and Newfoundland were left out of the confederation of Canada (following which military...ie land...defence of the dominion became the responsibility of the Canadian militia and the British Army in the dominion was reduced to garrisons to defend the naval yards in Halifax and Esquimalt, until those closed in 1905). Newfoundland became a dominion in its own right in 1907 (leaving Bermuda as the only colony in British North America). The RCR and CEF battalions were posted to Bermuda during the war, between the 2 Bn., Lincolnshire Regiment, being withdrawn in 1914, and the arrival of the 2/4th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment arriving in 1917, but I am sure they were only issued khaki serge and drills....I actually posted a photograph of the 38th Battalion CEF right before this one, as it happens.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Bermuda's garrison was technically part of Nova Scotia's until 1867, when Bermuda and Newfoundland were left out of the confederation of Canada (following which military...ie land...defence of the dominion became the responsibility of the Canadian militia and the British Army in the dominion was reduced to garrisons to defend the naval yards in Halifax and Esquimalt, until those closed in 1905). Newfoundland became a dominion in its own right in 1907 (leaving Bermuda as the only colony in British North America). The RCR and CEF battalions were posted to Bermuda during the war, between the 2 Bn., Lincolnshire Regiment, being withdrawn in 1914, and the arrival of the 2/4th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment arriving in 1917, but I am sure they were only issued khaki serge and drills....I actually posted a photograph of the 38th Battalion CEF right before this one, as it happens.

Interesting, but I think the Newfoundland or Canadian option is worth pursuing for two clear reasons.  First the blue puttees, but also the folding field service caps that were so popular with Canadian units that unlike British regiments they never went out of use.  They were still in use there during WW2 and became quite famous as a splash of colour amongst the otherwise ubiquitous khaki.  The caps were not in use in British units (apart from special khaki ones in the RFC) at the time represented by the lady’s fashion, that’s for sure.

Edited 25 June by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

Given the ground conditions and light, possibly late summer \ early autumn 1916?

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

  He’s the only captain among subalterns and so likely to have some considerable service in by comparison.  It is such a jump in rank (captains often adjutants or commanding companies) that I wonder if he might even be on the instructional staff.  His regiment is King’s Own Scottish Borderers (T.F.).

I tried looking through the British Army Monthly List for December 1916 for the KOSB - they start here . https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123858319

There is a Second Lieutenant serving with one of the TF Battalions attached to the MGC, but he was recently commissioned and so unlikely to have made Captain.  There is a Captain R.W. Sharpe of the 4th Battalion, but he is shown as a Brigade Machine Gun Officer.

Then there is a non-TF candidate,

Lieutenant H.C. Hatton-Hall. 2nd Battalion, attached M.G.C.
MiC as Hubert Charles Hatton-Hall, went to France 2/Lt with KOSB 31st May 1915, reached rank of Captain, Tank Corps. Awarded M.C.
Attended Sherborne School and Cambridge. Remained in the Army and was a Colonel in the Imperial General Staff when he died in London on the 26th November 1945.

Hubert Christopher Hatton-Hall image sourced Flickr user Rachel Hassall Sherborne School – which included his page and photograph from the School WW2 Roll of Honour.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sherborneschoolarchives/9412190775/in/photostream/                                                                                                                                                        

On page 208 of The Tank in Action by Douglas Gordon Browne he gets a mention as the Battalion Reconnaissance Officer of what I think is G Battalion in a Tank attack on the 19th August, 1917. https://archive.org/details/tankinaction00browrich/page/208/mode/2up?q=%22Hatton-Hall%22

The initial entries of the 4th Tank Brigade Headquarters on formation on the 1st January 1918 recorded the arrival of Captain H.C. Hatton-Hall, K.O.S.B. as Brigade Intelligence Officer. https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/43475

On page 373 of The Tank Corps, by Major Clough William- Ellis. M.C and A.William- Ellis, Captain Hatton- Hall is recorded as the Reconnaissance Officer for the 4th Tank Brigade, the Brigade including a US Tank Battalion that would first see action on the 29th September 1918.
https://archive.org/details/tankcorps00clou/page/372/mode/2up?q="Hatton-Hall"

The War List of the University of Cambridge 1914-18 records him as having been wounded. https://archive.org/details/warlistofunivers00univ/page/492/mode/2up?q="Hatton-Hall"

The Cambridge Review War List for 1917 records him wounded on the 26th June 1915. https://archive.org/details/cambridgereviews00camb/page/120/mode/2up?q="Hatton-Hall"

The April 1917 British Army War List records him twice - once still as a Lieutenant in the KOSB and with seniority from the 29th December 1915, (Column 1135) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104053088 and once as a Captain in the Heavy Branch of the Machine Gun Corps, but quoting two dates - 2nd July 1916 and the 16th January 1917. One will be his seniority as a Captain and the other in the Tank Corps, but which is which I do not know.

He gets a mention on page 390 of MI6: The History of the Secret Intelligence Service by Keith Jeffery as the head of the Army Section of SIS in the aftermath of the fall of France in 1940, along with other mentions throughout the book. https://archive.org/details/mi6historyofsecr0000jeff/page/390/mode/2up?q="Hubert+Hatton-Hall"

He was still there at the end of 1943. https://erenow.org/modern/the-secret-history-of-mi6/16.php

There is obviously a gap in time between the man featured in the MG course picture and the older Military Intelligence Officer from the Sherborne School picture, but still enough similarity about the eyes for it to be considered a possible match.  Add in the likelihood of being entitled to wear a wound stripe and possibility of being a Captain at the time the picture was taken and you can see why it made me take a more indepth look.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 25 June by PRC
Typos and formatting

[6RRF]

Mmmm inclined to agree. Even allowing for the time difference inevitably thickening him up a little the eyes look similar and I'd venture to say the mouth and ears look close

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I agree too.  Same nose and mouth.  Well done Peter.

[tankengine888]

I found this photo of Hatton-Hall... this doesn't look like the man in the course photo? Perhaps sleep deprivation on my end.

'H.C Hatton-Hall' 1913

[tankengine888]

Courtesy Ancestry

2nd Btn Sussex Regt before the outbreak of hostilities.

2 soldiers. The man on the left went missing without a trace on July 19th, 1916 with the Ox and Bucks

Captioned as a Bandsman of the Ox and Bucks

 

Another Ox and Bucks

A Captain of the Ox and Bucks. Killed in Action in June 1916. Photo taken Nov 1914

 

A Lance Jack of the Notts and Derbs

 

4 Army wallahs. All atleast wounded once.

 

Photo of a soldier with a helmet slung?

 

 

 

Mr Wong, Interpreter 8 Coy CLC

The following photos are in relation to 8 Coy CLC (and its commander)

(Sergeant Shao Wen Wang, 8 Coy)

 

Another group of CLC

[6RRF]

6 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

I found this photo of Hatton-Hall... this doesn't look like the man in the course photo? Perhaps sleep deprivation on my end.

'H.C Hatton-Hall' 1913

Sleep deprivation I fear, Zidane, I'd say that is [or rather will be] the man in question

[tankengine888]

4 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Sleep deprivation I fear, Zidane, I'd say that is [or rather will be] the man in question

Sleep deprivation it is. I had a bit of a traumatic morning yesterday, which has thrown me a bit out of whack.

The only thing throwing me off now is the face shape- the 'unidentified' Highland officer looks to have a longer face than Hatton-Hall.

[aodhdubh]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Interesting, but I think the Newfoundland or Canadian option is worth pursuing for two clear reasons.  First the blue puttees, but also the folding field service caps that were so popular with Canadian units that unlike British regiments they never went out of use.  They were still in use there during WW2 and became quite famous as a splash of colour amongst the otherwise ubiquitous khaki.  The caps were not in use in British units (apart from special khaki ones in the RFC) at the time represented by the lady’s fashion, that’s for sure.

Thanks. I'm exploring that possibility. All of the officers of the 38th are in the photograph in front of the Prospect Camp officers mess that I posted elsewhere, previously, though not in patrols. I have few photographs of other Canadian officers in Bermuda, but will compare.

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks. I'm exploring that possibility. All of the officers of the 38th are in the photograph in front of the Prospect Camp officers mess that I posted elsewhere, previously, though not in patrols. I have few photographs of other Canadian officers in Bermuda, but will compare.

They really do look far more Canadian than British to me for the reasons that I’ve outlined.  I also urge you to get other opinions regarding the lady’s dress (fashion, etc) as it can be surprisingly effective at narrowing down a date window. 

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Courtesy Ancestry

2nd Btn Sussex Regt before the outbreak of hostilities.

2 soldiers. The man on the left went missing without a trace on July 19th, 1916 with the Ox and Bucks

Captioned as a Bandsman of the Ox and Bucks

 

Another Ox and Bucks

A Captain of the Ox and Bucks. Killed in Action in June 1916. Photo taken Nov 1914

 

A Lance Jack of the Notts and Derbs

 

4 Army wallahs. All atleast wounded once.

 

Photo of a soldier with a helmet slung?

 

 

 

Mr Wong, Interpreter 8 Coy CLC

The following photos are in relation to 8 Coy CLC (and its commander)

(Sergeant Shao Wen Wang, 8 Coy)

 

Another group of CLC

Photo 1. This shows a good mix of regulars turfed out of their barrack room for an impromptu photo opportunity. Interesting to see a couple of white shirts as alternatives to the common grey-back, with a soldier so clad on the left showing his canvas belt with money pouch and just in front of him a bandsman identifiable by his brass arm badge.  The mix of ages apparent is quite typical of the home service battalion which tended to have a greater share of younger soldiers recently joined.  Men of that period were expected to have a least 6-months to a year’s service before being sent as part of a draft of reinforcements to their regiment’s foreign service (overseas) battalion.

Photo 2. Two unblooded Territorials of the Bedfordshire Regiment who going from your caption must have been subsequently posted to the Oxf & Bucks LI.

Photo 3. A drummer of a Volunteer Battalion still wearing the grey full dress of its forebear Rifle Volunteer unit.  This is puzzling as Rifle Volunteers and the VBs they became usually only favoured Buglers so this requires more research.  He could perhaps be a drummer in the battalion’s band, which is the only circumstance that would fit the traditional mores.  However, he wears the drummers festooned cords and arm badge that was dress protocol for a corps of drums and not a band.

Photo 4. A diminutive infantryman of the OBLI in khaki drill typical for a hot weather station who has plaited his clasp knife lanyard in one of the more unusual open weaves.

Photo 5.  An office of the OBLI distinguished by his regimental collar badges that uniquely featured the regimental button and a short length of gimp cord that was more usually associated with a gorget tab.  It was also a regimental tradition to like the Cameronian’s wear both shoulder braces of the Sam Browne belt at all times.  Most noticeable to me is that he has purchased his SD in one of the much lighter weight serge materials better suited to hot weather.

Photo 6. This smartly turned out veteran Sherwood Forester stands out with his two wound stripes and marksman and Lewis Gunner badges.  The cloth formation badge above his stripe might be of interest to @poona guard.

Photo 7.  These four infantry JNCOs have manifestly seen a lot of action with their wound stripes and world weary faces with eyes that have seen things they’d rather not.  One of them has a skill at arms badge above his stripe, probably showing competence with the Lewis Gun.  They all wear the 1917 soft trench cap and have been awarded good conduct badges indicating 2-years blemish service since 1916 .  

Photo 8. This soldier of the King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) carrries his respirator and steel helmet in accordance with GHQ Standing Orders during the last year of the war.

Photo 9.  This elegantly dressed Chinese interpreter oozes his superior status and language skills that have earned him a very influential position and privileged conditions.  His appearance suggests education and a higher social status since birth.

Photo 10. This Labour Corps officer wears the general service list cap and collar insignia assigned to his corps since it’s creation in 1917.  He is probably originally from the ranks, or he might perhaps have been a regular officer wounded and downgraded.  However, the absence of a wound stripe suggests the former.  His black, ball buttons are evidence of a past with either, the King’s Royal Rifle Corps, or a London regiment battalion that followed dress protocols aligned with the KRRC.

Photo 11. This appears to show the company mess for the officers.  Labour Corps companies were large (double those of infantry), but had fewer commissioned officers than their infantry counterparts.

Photo 12. This photo of a veteran Labour Corps officer must have been taken at the end of the war, probably during the 1919 salvage period, as he not only wears two of the early war medals, but also the newly designed and issued insignia for the Labour Corps that replaced the previous general service badges. 

Photo 13. This Chinese sergeant wears an 1899 pattern frock in khaki drill.  The CLC mostly wore a motley collection of obsolescent uniform items, makeshift rank badges, and long greatcoats. 

Photo 14. This group of Chinese Labour Corps gives a good impression of the diverse appearance of such me men who came from a range of provinces and ethnic Chinese groups.  They continued to carry out sterling work right through 1919 and played a big past in the disposal of battlefield detritus and the repatriation of key equipments.

 

Edited 26 June by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Very interesting to see the CLC pics, thanks for posting them. Cap badges on display: 3 of the 4 previously-wounded lance-corporals are I think Royal Warwickshire Regt, and the man with slung helmet is maybe King's Own. The two men with leather equipment and non-SMLEs (I'm terrible with pre-war rifles, apologies to the horrified cognoscenti) I don't know - those cap  are reminiscent of Kiwis, but did they wear collar badges? I'm sure it's an easy one - just an easy one I don't recognise! Suspect the kit will tell us more.

(Just seen Frogsmile's much more efficient numbering system - much better approach).

[poona guard]

I have never come across this badge before. Does anyone have any ideas? I think Mark Holden is an expert on this?

[PRC]

9 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

The only thing throwing me off now is the face shape- the 'unidentified' Highland officer looks to have a longer face than Hatton-Hall.

I think that's it may just be a question of focal length, lens used and the position of the camera - both the known pictures of Hatton-Hall appear to be taken from slightly below, while the unknown officer is having to look up at the camera. And with his "Private Pike" wooly scarff on in the 1913 picture it tends to bulk up his face and shorten it.

The thing for me in all three images is the subjects right eye socket. It's almost as if the nose side has been pushed back into the skull slightly and up, forcing the cheek side slightly forward & down and thus causing the heavy lidded effect, while also then being at odds with the shape and positioning of the subjects left eye socket.

Still for me would could under the heading. "worthy of further investigation" - let's hope someday someone investigating Hatton-Hall gets to pull his file and that of Knowles to see if they can be placed in the same location at the same time. The other officers and the SNCO instructor I suspect may never be identified - and the threads moving too fast to hold things up by trying

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, poona guard said:

I have never come across this badge before. Does anyone have any ideas? I think Mark Holden is an expert on this?

There is a special website covering the TF Sherwood Foresters and I’ve communicated with the webmaster there before.  I’m not sure if that is @mark holden .

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

I think that's it may just be a question of focal length, lens used and the position of the camera - both the known pictures of Hatton-Hall appear to be taken from slightly below, while the unknown officer is having to look up at the camera. And with his "Private Pike" wooly scarff on in the 1913 picture it tends to bulk up his face and shorten it.

The thing for me in all three images is the subjects right eye socket. It's almost as if the nose side has been pushed back into the skull slightly and up, forcing the cheek side slightly forward & down and thus causing the heavy lidded effect, while also then being at odds with the shape and positioning of the subjects left eye socket.

Still for me would could under the heading. "worthy of further investigation" - let's hope someday someone investigating Hatton-Hall gets to pull his file and that of Knowles to see if they can be placed in the same location at the same time. The other officers and the SNCO instructor I suspect may never be identified - and the threads moving too fast to hold things up by trying

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

It’s ironic that the boy looks much more like the MI6 man, both with plump cheeks at opposite ends of a life span.  Clearly they didn’t feed him well in the KOSB.

[PRC]

19 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

The following photos are in relation to 8 Coy CLC (and its commander)

Are these the same man according to your Ancestry source?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[tankengine888]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Are these the same man according to your Ancestry source?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes, I believe so. It didn't rightly state which one he was, but rather that it was the Officers Mess of 8 Coy CLC