Postcards

[6RRF]

43 minutes ago, PRC said:

Thanks for checking - although that assures me my eyesight, unlike @FROGSMILE 's  is getting worse

British Newspaper Archive does have some references to a 1st Northumbrian (Country of Durham), Royal Field Artillery, camping at Morecambe. If I'm reading the preview snippets correctly then looks that their fortnight started in the second week of the RGA unit being there.

Cheers,
Peter

Many years ago [far too many] I lived just along from the Barrack Road drill hall in Newcastle. At that time the Tyneside Scottish, [who had evolved via a battalion of the DLI into artillery!] were based there.

Edited 27 June by 6RRF

[PRC]

1 hour ago, tankengine888 said:

School of Musketry at Bisley, 1915

Looks like another course photograph, as the only soldier from the School of Musketry is seated in the centre. Behind his right shoulder appears to be a Sergeant from one of the Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment with what looks like the Imperial Service tablet on his right breast.

Incidentally the Infantry and Small Arms Corps School collection on the Ogilby Muster website has a named picture of the school staff, taken in August 1917. While the NCO instructor in the 1915 picture may well have moved on by that date, if he didn't then there is potentially a facial match for a SNCO shown as CSIM J.E. Bix.

August 1917 picture can be found here https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/2570266

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[max7474]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Max, I agree with your clarification about barracks warden and realise now that you’d meant garrison staff in your succeeding sentence previously, rather than ‘barracks staff’.  The barracks masters and barracks wardens were both time expired warrant officers and NCOs engaged in what subsequently became long service list type roles.

This type of insignia (Royal cyphers) really needs more research and very little has been published about it outside of military historical society bulletins and such like.  The many reforms and reorganisations have made things difficult to pin down with any great confidence.

I’d like to see more evidence concerning the schoolmasters, who generally wore no rank (an engineer style shoulder knot instead), a frock coat, and a cap with plain crown (except overseas where khaki drill and other appropriate uniform was worn).  If insignia changed before they were disbanded and the Army Education Corps replaced them (years later), then I’ve not yet found definitive evidence, so hence my query

Well the 1920's poster suggests that it ha d changed by then.  The cap badge was used by many units and I believe also worn by the Royal Defence Corps.  Consequently it is not an uncommon badge compared to the Garrison Staff cap badge which is much rarer.  The version in a wreath has been described in some books as a Provost badge but the Provost museum has failed to turn up any example of this so I believe it to be wrong.  

[Bob Davies]

From an earlier post by @tankengine888.

What are these rifles, @4thGordons Chris do you have any idea please?

The sling mount on the butt does not match to any British rifle I know of or can find pictures of.

Also the muzzle end does not match a p13/14 Enfield

CLLE rifles are the closest Enfield but the lower sling mount does not match.

It is much further towards the trigger than on any Lee Enfield I can find.

The only rifle that comes close is in my eyes a Mauser1893.

Regards,

Bob.

Image courtesy of Wikipedia.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_Model_1893

Image courtesy of Ancestry.

''2 soldiers. The man on the left went missing without a trace on July 19th, 1916 with the Ox and Bucks''

Edit; Territorials of the Bedfordshire Regiment.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

Well the 1920's poster suggests that it ha d changed by then.  The cap badge was used by many units and I believe also worn by the Royal Defence Corps.  Consequently it is not an uncommon badge compared to the Garrison Staff cap badge which is much rarer.  The version in a wreath has been described in some books as a Provost badge but the Provost museum has failed to turn up any example of this so I believe it to be wrong.  

1. The Royal Defence Corps cypher badge has a scroll at its base.

2.  I concur entirely Max that the badge in a wreath has no provenance with the MPSC.  Intriguingly it’s similar to the unattached list, and general list, badges for the British Indian Army, but without the I for Imperator/Imperatrix.

I agree with your comment about the badge being used by a number of the more obscure units, which has really been the whole point of my discussion with you.  It isn’t currently clear to the extent that other badges are.

 

Edited 27 June by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

From an earlier post by @tankengine888.

What are these rifles, @4thGordons Chris do you have any idea please?

The sling mount on the butt does not match to any British rifle I know of or can find pictures of.

Also the muzzle end does not match a p13/14 Enfield

CLLE rifles are the closest Enfield but the lower sling mount does not match.

It is much further towards the trigger than on any Lee Enfield I can find.

The only rifle that comes close is in my eyes a Mauser1893.

Regards,

Bob.

Image courtesy of Wikipedia.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_Model_1893

Image courtesy of Ancestry.

''2 soldiers. The man on the left went missing without a trace on July 19th, 1916 with the Ox and Bucks''

 

Probably Arisakas Bob, a lot were purchased from Japan early in the war to cope with the training demands.  The two soldiers are Territorials of the Bedfordshire Regiment.

[6RRF]

59 minutes ago, PRC said:

Looks like another course photograph, as the only soldier from the School of Musketry is seated in the centre. Behind his right shoulder appears to be a Sergeant from one of the Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment with what looks like the Imperial Service tablet on his right breast.

Incidentally the Infantry and Small Arms Corps School collection on the Ogilby Muster website has a named picture of the school staff, taken in August 1917. While the NCO instructor in the 1915 picture may well have moved on by that date, if he didn't then there is potentially a facial match for a SNCO shown as CSIM J.E. Bix.

August 1917 picture can be found here https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/2570266

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Looks like him to me Peter

[max7474]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1. The Royal Defence Corps badge has a scroll at its base.

2.  I concur entirely Max that the badge in a wreath has no provenance with the MPSC.  Intriguingly it’s similar to an unattached list badge for the British Indian Army, but without the I for Imperator/Imperatrix.

I agree with your comment about the badge being used by a number of the more obscure units, which has really been the point of my discussion with you.  It isn’t currently clear to the extent that other badges are.

 

An RDC with scroll exists but is very very scarce and may be an officers variant or rarity and was certainly not widely worn.

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/06/2024 at 19:36, max7474 said:

An RDC with scroll exists but is very very scarce and may be an officers variant or rarity and was certainly not widely worn.

The trouble is we simply don’t know if that was merely a pro tem measure until new badges with scrolls at their base were manufactured and available (which I think highly likely).  The Royal Cypher without embellishment had been used for years for smaller more obscure units going back through Edward VII to Queen Victoria, most notably garrison staff**. I’ve posted before with numerous photographic examples of that.  I don’t really want to do so again.  It would be repetitive and stretching the WW1 focus.

The National Army Museum has this to say for the badge within a wreath:

“Cap badge, The Royal Defence Corps, 1917-18 (c)

Gilt metal badge with the royal cypher of King George V within a laurel wreath, surmounted by a monarchial crown, with a vertical slider fitting on the reverse.

The Royal Defence Corps was formed in 1917. Its members came from Regimental Garrison Battalions and it eventually included 27,000 soldiers who guarded secure establishments like prisoner of war camps.

The badge is very similar to the Military Provost Staff Corps. It was changed to a circular button style badge in 1918.”

NB.  Enamelled badges are of course lapel pins.  CWGC headstones of those who died in service bear the Royal Cypher without title scroll.

** As a hangover from this is was the cap badge of “Inspectors of Army Schools” (separate to the Corps of Army Schoolmasters) right through to their disbandment. 

Edited 5 August by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Probably Arisakas Bob, a lot were purchased from Japan early in the war to cope with the training demands.  The two soldiers are Territorials of the Bedfordshire Regiment.

Yes, they look like Arisakas. A mixed batch of 150,000 Type 30 and 38 were bought from Japan, supposedly for issue to the Royal Navy in exchange for the Navy's Lee Enfields. Inevitably though they went further afield.

[Bob Davies]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Probably Arisakas Bob, a lot were purchased from Japan early in the war to cope with the training demands.  The two soldiers are Territorials of the Bedfordshire Regiment.

Thanks FROGSMILE,

more than likely a type 38 Arisaka.

Could be a type 30 but the picture I posted below of a type 38, has a 'cleaning rod'.

Paragraph courtesy of Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_30_rifle

Early in World War I Britain ordered around 150,000 Type 30, and Type 38 rifles and carbines from Japan as a stopgap until the manufacture of their own Lee–Enfield rifles caught up with demand. Some of these rifles were handed over to the Royal Navy and to Arab forces fighting with Lawrence of Arabia. The majority of these weapons (Type 30s and Type 38s) were handed over to Russia in 1916, who were far more desperate for arms.

Image courtesy of Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_38_rifle

[4thGordons]

Yes - nice pic of Arisakas. There are a few threads on them - I have picked up several images containing them. There is a partial list of units known to have utilized them in training.

Here are a couple of additional pics for comparison

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Quote:

The sergeant major of battalion is seated centrally and wearing a warrant officer’s version of officers service dress bearing the old (pre Jan 1915) style rank badge and a horizontal line of herringbone lace across his cuff (this was later abandoned). 

I am fascinated by these occasional glimpses of the cuffring in SD of RSMs. I have never systematically tried to collect examples, but they seem [from a small sample] to be very close to 1914 era. I have never seen reference to them in Orders, CRs or PVCNs.

Just a fashion, or sanctioned? Are we certain it was herringbone design?

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I have never seen reference to them in Orders, CRs or PVCNs.

Just a fashion, or sanctioned? Are we certain it was herringbone design?

I have never seen any documentation either, and am as intrigued as you are.  The adoption of a line of cuff lace doesn’t seem to have been universal and subsequently there were far more examples of either, a mitred cuff modelled on the blue patrol jacket, or no cuff section at all.

A puzzling aspect is that quite diverse regiments adopted that line of lace, ranging from Scottish regiments with gauntlet cuffs to English regiments with a more general cut.  Given the dispersal and varied deployments suggests some unified effort and an agreed policy early on, as a common practice would be unlikely without some degree of coordinated intent.  The twisted shoulder cord on the example below that we’ve discussed before suggests that the initial adoption was quite early on. 

As regards lace pattern, the herringbone type used for officers cuff rank appears to have been the baseline type, which seems logical from a tailoring effort perspective, but perhaps the alternative more plain lace procured during the war might also have been used, as from a distance it’s not possible to discern the difference.  The type not seen so far is that with the cross hatching.

There is no evidence to date, or at least as far as what I’ve been able to uncover over the years, of any off-the-peg uniform for warrant officers, neither does it seem likely that they purchased their own, nor that there was a cash allowance to procure it (I think we would have uncovered that).

It’s for these reasons that, as I’ve mentioned to you before, I believe it likely that the uniforms were made using unit, or later on formation level (consolidated) tailoring services, probably - it seems to me - by misappropriating / co-opting the funding allocated in clothing regulations for bespoke first class full dress uniform that was no longer required, nor drawn upon.  Such an arrangement would have been easy to maintain, account for by audit, and given the relatively small numbers proportionately, not have broken the bank.

NB.  I have continued to add images to the thread showing examples of these uniforms since the matter was last discussed. 

 

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Courtesy Ancestry

Somewhere in France (2 photos)

 

2nd Btn East Yorks

 

A bit of an over-exposed photo.. very woolly.

Cpl F. Cole's Squad of Coldstream Guards in May 1917

Artists Rifles 1914, perhaps Aldershot.

 

[battle of loos]

2 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

 

good morning,

what is the unit patch?

Canadian unit?

the cap badge is the Welsh Regt or Leinster Regt?

thank's for your help.

regards

michel

 

[tankengine888]

1 minute ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

what is the unit patch?

Canadian unit?

the cap badge is the Welsh Regt or Leinster Regt?

thank's for your help.

regards

michel

 

Good question! The caption was 2nd Btn East Yorks and I went on assumption that it was correct.

I noticed the maple leaf type colour patch and wondered whether anyone else might know what it denotes.

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Good question! The caption was 2nd Btn East Yorks and I went on assumption that it was correct.

I noticed the maple leaf type colour patch and wondered whether anyone else might know what it denotes.

They are three soldiers of the Prince of Wales’s Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians) a unit that had previously been the 100th (Prince of Wales’s Royal Canadian) Regiment of Foot merged with the 109th (Bombay infantry) Regiment of Foot in the great reform of July 1881.  The Royal Canadians had been a unit raised by the generous subscriptions of Canadian citizens as their contribution towards the emergency presented by the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 (aka the Indian Mutiny, aka the first Indian War of Independence).

To commemorate this Canadian connection the Maple leaf appeared on the regimental colours and the cloth arm badge shown also took that form.  The colonel in chief of the regiment was always HRH The Prince of Wales, one of two Irish infantry regiments with which he was associated, the other being the Royal Irish Fusiliers.  The Leinster’s were disbanded upon the partition of the island of Ireland in 1922.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

17 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

No.17 Squad at School of Musketry in Stresnall, York. Taken in Apr 1917

17 hours ago, 6RRF said:

Interesting one. All but the instructor have 1914 leather equipment and all [including the instructor] are armed with P14 rifles 

This photo is of interest to me because of the two unnamed Norfolk Regiment Sergeants stood in the back. But as I was looking for potential visual clues about them to narrow down the Battalion(s) they came from, I couldn't help notice that perhaps the stance of the instructor seems a little bit unnatural. Unlike the others present he merely cradles part of the rifle , possibly loosely, between the thumb and forefinger on his left hand. I've very little experience of handing weaponry and I'm sure he's 100% certain there is nothing in the breech, but would that really be a practice he'd want to encourage?

It seems almost as if the Sergeant on his left was using his own rifle to take some of the weight of the instructors' rifle, although that may simply be a trick of perspective.

Finally, may be a trick of the light, or a fold of the cloth, but does the instructors lower right sleeve look remarkably empty by comparison to his own left arm and the arms of others present. Look how deep the elbow fold seems to be. He has covered what should be his right hand with his left hand so difficult to make out if there are fingers present or a glove.

Could be reading far too much into it - no wound stripe for example - but if he has suffered damage to his lower right arm to such an extent then possibly speaks volumes about his quality as an instructor that he has been retained.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, PRC said:

This photo is of interest to me because of the two unnamed Norfolk Regiment Sergeants stood in the back. But as I was looking for potential visual clues about them to narrow down the Battalion(s) they came from, I couldn't help notice that perhaps the stance of the instructor seems a little bit unnatural. Unlike the others present he merely cradles part of the rifle , possibly loosely, between the thumb and forefinger on his left hand. I've very little experience of handing weaponry and I'm sure he's 100% certain there is nothing in the breech, but would that really be a practice he'd want to encourage?

It seems almost as if the Sergeant on his left was using his own rifle to take some of the weight of the instructors' rifle, although that may simply be a trick of perspective.

Finally, may be a trick of the light, or a fold of the cloth, but does the instructors lower right sleeve look remarkably empty by comparison to his own left arm and the arms of others present. Look how deep the elbow fold seems to be. He has covered what should be his right hand with his left hand so difficult to make out if there are fingers present or a glove.

Could be reading far too much into it - no wound stripe for example - but if he has suffered damage to his lower right arm to such an extent then possibly speaks volumes about his quality as an instructor that he has been retained.

Cheers,
Peter

It does look odd I agree.  The man standing far left is also cradling his rifle in an awkward manner.  I cannot offer anything to account for it.  Unfortunately the view of the instructors right arm and hand precludes any definitive explanation.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They are three soldiers of the Prince of Wales’s Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians) a unit that had previously been the 100th (Prince of Wales’s Royal Canadian) Regiment of Foot merged with the 109th (Bombay infantry) Regiment of Foot in the great reform of July 1881.  The Royal Canadians had been a unit raised by the generous subscriptions of Canadian citizens as their contribution towards the emergency presented by the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 (aka the Indian Mutiny, aka the first Indian War of Independence).

To commemorate this Canadian connection the Maple leaf appeared on the regimental colours and the cloth arm badge shown also took that form.  The colonel in chief of the regiment was always HRH The Prince of Wales, one of two Irish infantry regiments with which he was associated, the other being the Royal Irish Fusiliers.  The Leinster’s were disbanded upon the partition of the island of Ireland in 1922.

thank's for your explination.

michel

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

thank's for your explination.

michel

I’m glad to help Michel, but I fear that I missed out some of the most important information of all.  I must emphasise that despite the potentially confusing association with Canada, the regiment’s new title in 1881 associated it with the island of Ireland down in the ancient southern province of Leinster.  As such the regiment’s official recruiting areas were Meath, Westmeath, Longford, King's County (now Offaly), and Queen's County (changed to ‘County Laois’).  Both name changes subsequent to partition, in order to remove all reference to the British crown).

Like all of the fine Irish regiments, fierce fighting in France and Flanders led to high casualties that became increasingly difficult to replace given the relatively small population of Ireland, fierce political resistance in some quarters, and the competing demands of a highly rurally dependent economy.

Following the political decision to not introduce conscription in Ireland (unlike the other nations of the then U.K.) some drafts from parts of England were sent to supplement those smaller numbers still coming from Ireland.  Despite this leavening with men from outside Ireland the Irish regiments never lost their sense of identity.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[GWF TEAM]

A reminder again of the forum rules. All images from external sites must be acknowledged please. 

[Muerrisch]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I have never seen any documentation either, and am as intrigued as you are.  The adoption of a line of cuff lace doesn’t seem to have been universal and subsequently there were far more examples of either, a mitred cuff modelled on the blue patrol jacket, or no cuff section at all.

A puzzling aspect is that quite diverse regiments adopted that line of lace, ranging from Scottish regiments with gauntlet cuffs to English regiments with a more general cut.  Given the dispersal and varied deployments suggests some unified effort and an agreed policy early on, as a common practice would be unlikely without some degree of coordinated intent.  The twisted shoulder cord on the example below that we’ve discussed before suggests that the initial adoption was quite early on. 

As regards lace pattern, the herringbone type used for officers cuff rank appears to have been the baseline type, which seems logical from a tailoring effort perspective, but perhaps the alternative more plain lace procured during the war might also have been used, as from a distance it’s not possible to discern the difference.  The type not seen so far is that with the cross hatching.

There is no evidence to date, or at least as far as what I’ve been able to uncover over the years, of any off-the-peg uniform for warrant officers, neither does it seem likely that they purchased their own, nor that there was a cash allowance to procure it (I think we would have uncovered that).

It’s for these reasons that, as I’ve mentioned to you before, I believe it likely that the uniforms were made using unit, or later on formation level (consolidated) tailoring services, probably - it seems to me - by misappropriating / co-opting the funding allocated in clothing regulations for bespoke first class full dress uniform that was no longer required, nor drawn upon.  Such an arrangement would have been easy to maintain, account for by audit, and given the relatively small numbers proportionately, not have broken the bank.

NB.  I have continued to add images to the thread showing examples of these uniforms since the matter was last discussed. 

 

Much obliged, it is an interesting little area. I too have seen a Highland version. I do have one idea which may partly account for a few cases, and fits neatly with my suspicion that cases seem close to 1914.

During the rapid post-declaration expansion, 

20^th August. Reserve battalions to be grown to 2000 Other Ranks but only after “the service battalion” has been formed. After this, fill the Depôt, after this, divert to another regiment. WOI.288. [War Office Instructions became titled ACIs]

2^nd September. When Service battalions of new division are filled, Reserve battalions to grow to 2000 all ranks. Surplus intended for next new division. WOI.11

19^th September. Reserve battalions to grow to 2600 men. WOI.258.

 

Accordingly, Establishments were temporarily adjusted upwards and [from memory and I will check] the vital posts of RSM and RQMS were doubled up. There is a possibility [no more] that the senior RSM [!!!!!] might have adopted the cuff ring. First among equals. Just possibly.

[Muerrisch]

Two observations:

• The Artists' Rifles sergeant wears three small 4-point stars, a relic of the  RACD entry of 3^rd June 1907 which specified a small four-point star on the right cuff for each Militia  re-enlistment. There is clearly a story to be told.
• Corporal Coles's CG squad reminds us that these were the days before full corporals of Foot Guards automatically became lance-sergeants and Mess members. Standing extreme left is the two GCB soldier [often called "Trained Soldier"] responsible for teaching the minutiae of dress, equipment, bull, regimental history and ethos.