Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Much obliged, it is an interesting little area. I too have seen a Highland version. I do have one idea which may partly account for a few cases, and fits neatly with my suspicion that cases seem close to 1914.

During the rapid post-declaration expansion, 

20^th August. Reserve battalions to be grown to 2000 Other Ranks but only after “the service battalion” has been formed. After this, fill the Depôt, after this, divert to another regiment. WOI.288. [War Office Instructions became titled ACIs]

2^nd September. When Service battalions of new division are filled, Reserve battalions to grow to 2000 all ranks. Surplus intended for next new division. WOI.11

19^th September. Reserve battalions to grow to 2600 men. WOI.258.

 

Accordingly, Establishments were temporarily adjusted upwards and [from memory and I will check] the vital posts of RSM and RQMS were doubled up. There is a possibility [no more] that the senior RSM [!!!!!] might have adopted the cuff ring. First among equals. Just possibly.

I believe it was certainly an early-on thing, as the cuff ring was soon dropped, but the photo of the QMS Cameronian’s wearing such a jacket bespeaks a commencement prewar.  There have been a couple of examples where a QMS has been seen in that superior style and I think it relates to that pre WOII period when the QMS was top dog by appointment among all the first class staff sergeants, a position that lost a little of its lustre when he was made WOII and found himself equal in rank, if not in appointment - where he still held sway - with the new CSMs.

As for the regulations I suspect it was the same as with officers dress as discussed in the past that the dress regulations (in OR case ‘clothing’) caught up with what had already been in place some time.  The WOI dress was small beer for the authorities really when they had matters of more financial moment to deal with such as separation allowance and disability and widow’s pensions, etc.  The cost of WOs SD would’ve been minuscule by comparison.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Corporal Coles's CG squad reminds us that these were the days before full corporals of Foot Guards automatically became lance-sergeants and Mess members. Standing extreme left is the two GCB soldier [often called "Trained Soldier"] responsible for teaching the minutiae of dress, equipment, bull, regimental history and ethos. 

There were usually two Trained Soldiers per squad back then, I think the other can be seen far right, albeit not yet with GCB.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, PRC said:

Looks like another course photograph, as the only soldier from the School of Musketry is seated in the centre. Behind his right shoulder appears to be a Sergeant from one of the Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment with what looks like the Imperial Service tablet on his right breast.

Incidentally the Infantry and Small Arms Corps School collection on the Ogilby Muster website has a named picture of the school staff, taken in August 1917. While the NCO instructor in the 1915 picture may well have moved on by that date, if he didn't then there is potentially a facial match for a SNCO shown as CSIM J.E. Bix.

August 1917 picture can be found here https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/2570266

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

It does look like Bix, Peter, I agree.  That’s a good spot.

 

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I believe it was certainly an early-on thing, as the cuff ring was soon dropped, but the photo of the QMS Cameronian’s wearing such a jacket bespeaks a commencement prewar.  There have been a couple of examples where a QMS has been seen in that superior style and I think it relates to that pre WOII period when the QMS was top dog by appointment among all the first class staff sergeants, a position that lost a little of its lustre when he was made WOII and found himself equal in rank, if not in appointment - where he still held sway - with the new CSMs.

As for the regulations I suspect it was the same as with officers dress as discussed in the past that the dress regulations (in OR case ‘clothing’) caught up with what had already been in place some time.  The WOI dress was small beer for the authorities really when they had matters of more financial moment to deal with such as separation allowance and disability and widow’s pensions, etc.

Oddly enough the [R]QMS, although top dog, was not on top pay ........... he received 4/- per day, whereas the Orderly Room incumbent, if rank-ranged to rank QMS received 5/4-. The armourer staff sergeant attached received 5/6-. In those days soldiers' pay was intricately complicated.

[tankengine888]

Courtesy Ancestry

SWB (3)

 

Welsh Guards

3/5 Black Watch Football team 1916

 

Marching Order presumably. Black Watch

Member of the 1/7th Northumberland Fusiliers

 

Edited 28 June by tankengine888

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Muerrisch said:

Oddly enough the [R]QMS, although top dog, was not on top pay ........... he received 4/- per day, whereas the Orderly Room incumbent, if rank-ranged to rank QMS received 5/4-. The armourer staff sergeant attached received 5/6-. In those days soldiers' pay was intricately complicated.

Yes I remember being very surprised that the Armourer usually received the same financial remuneration as the sergeant major of battalion, a reflection I think of what he could earn outside.  

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Standing extreme left is the two GCB soldier [often called "Trained Soldier"] responsible for teaching the minutiae of dress, equipment, bull, regimental history and ethos. 

Looking again I think that the man on right is probably just an outlier from the rest of the squad, it does seem uncommon to see a TS without GCB.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Courtesy Ancestry

SWB (3)

 

Welsh Guards

3/5 Black Watch Football team 1916

 

Marching Order presumably. Black Watch

Member of the 1/7th Northumberland Fusiliers

 

The 1/7th NF image might be of interest to @poona guard , also the two soldiers with the cloth numeral 8 on their arms that you posted yesterday. 

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 1/7th NF image might be of interest to @poona guard also the two soldiers with the cloth numeral 8 on their arms that you posted yesterday. 

I have a quick question for you. A photo I posted recently shows a tommie in a fur coat (or similar). When would he be allowed to wear it? (In the line, rest camp, etc)

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

I have a quick question for you. A photo I posted recently shows a tommie in a fur coat (or similar). When would he be allowed to wear it? (In the line, rest camp, etc)

In the line mostly, the sergeant majors would have discouraged wear in rear area rest camps I think, where it’s likely that focus would have been on cleaning them from dried mud and perhaps pest infestation too, they did attract the latter apparently.  That said it would have depended too on weather and accommodation conditions and what other warm clothing might’ve been available, so it’s impossible to be completely definitive about it.

To my very great surprise they were apparently even worn to go on leave when leave was first introduced, something I didn’t believe until I saw the images, though I suspect it was clamped down upon as later scenes don’t show them and their smelliness would’ve been unpopular. 

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Much obliged, it is an interesting little area. I too have seen a Highland version. I do have one idea which may partly account for a few cases, and fits neatly with my suspicion that cases seem close to 1914.

Notice the sergeant major with cuff ring stood centrally here…  An ex regular now with the Territorials by the look of him.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[Gardenerbill]

He has a medal ribbon, probably too indistinct to identify.

[tankengine888]

1 minute ago, Gardenerbill said:

He has a medal ribbon, probably too indistinct to identify.

QSA and KSA for the Second Boer War. Even at that poor quality, I can distinguish the unmistakable pair.*

* Or atleast have a very confident guess

Edited 28 June by tankengine888

[Gardenerbill]

I would agree they're the most likely.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

He has a medal ribbon, probably too indistinct to identify.

Two I think, if you mean the Black Watch.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

11 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Courtesy Ancestry

Somewhere in France (2 photos)

 

2nd Btn East Yorks

 

A bit of an over-exposed photo.. very woolly.

Cpl F. Cole's Squad of Coldstream Guards in May 1917

Artists Rifles 1914, perhaps Aldershot.

 

Another Artists Rifles photo which shows both types of cap badge being worn.         Pete.

[6RRF]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It does look odd I agree.  The man standing far left is also cradling his rifle in an awkward manner.  I cannot offer anything to account for it.  Unfortunately the view of the instructors right arm and hand precludes any definitive explanation.

Looking very closely, the instructor is wearing a leather glove on his right hand 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, 6RRF said:

Looking very closely, the instructor is wearing a leather glove on his right hand 

That certainly might suggest some wounding, or deformity, as implied by Peter.

[poona guard]

3 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Another Artists Rifles photo which shows both types of cap badge being worn.         Pete.

7th Leinsters not 2nd east yorks

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

7th Leinsters not 2nd east yorks

????.

[PRC]

On 27/06/2024 at 16:45, tankengine888 said:

Signaller Section, 1st Btn Essex Regiment. 1912, Quetta

 

Would the Britsh Army Infantry Battalion structure of 1912 have actually run to a Signaller "Section"?
If so, even for a Battalion serving overseas and presumably at full strength, would it have had so many?
Were they administratively a section and then parcelled out to the Companys, or did the Companys have there own signallers?
Or are all of these the entire Battalions' worth of signallers?

Reason for asking stems from the returns for the 1st Battalion on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. I was initially looking to see if I could establish who their O.C was and, if they were a single cohesive unit, whether they all appeared on one Barracks block return. That would have limited some of the potential matches for the NCO's present.

For context an institutional return like a Barrack Block normally runs to 14 pages, with each page running to 30 lines. A Battalion serving overseas will often be covered by 3 or more such returns - in part because the whole 14 pages won't be used, but also because the married quarters for other ranks are attached to individual barracks blocks and so wives and children are shown on the final pages.

In the case of the Essex Regiment the returns are normally set out by rank, and then within rank by an alphabetical surname listing.

If the Signallers were a section, the presumption would be that they would mess together and Barracks together. But instead they are spread out across each of the Barracks returns.

Here's a sample page with column 6 showing Army trade or occupation. Along with Dog Killer, (line 23), Soldiers Club Theatre, (line 17) and Orderly Wesleyan Chapel, (line 29), there are Garrison Policemen, (lines 6 and 26), and Signallers, (lines 3 and 9).

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Cheers,
Peter

[Muerrisch]

Frustrated by the locking, I PM'd the enquirer with the facts.

If anyone wants a copy, feel free to PM me.

[tankengine888]

Image Courtesy Ancestry

Officers of the 21st Battalion, April 8th 1918. I spot an MC front row on right. I suspect that is Robert Bazley MC and Bar. I further suspect back row, fourth from left is Jack Edwards MC DCM MM

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Frustrated by the locking, I PM'd the enquirer with the facts.

If anyone wants a copy, feel free to PM me.

Why was it locked?

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Why was it locked?

I know nothing of this.

Seems to meet publishable criteria.

Finger trouble perhaps.