Postcards

[TomWW1]

George Redfern 13926

Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry

[Jerry B]

A stunning lot of RWF photos. 

 

Do the two officer portraits have enough sharpness to discern if they have the griffin or dragon on the collar badges?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Jerry B said:

A stunning lot of RWF photos. 

 

Do the two officer portraits have enough sharpness to discern if they have the griffin or dragon on the collar badges?

They will be Griffin Jerry, the pattern changed in 1920.

[Jerry B]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

They will be Griffin Jerry, the pattern changed in 1920.

I know that, but its nice to see it in period photographs

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Jerry B said:

I know that, but its nice to see it in period photographs

Ah, I understand.  You mean you thought it possible the photos might be from after 1920.  I ruled that out given their apparent ages and the absence of WW1 medal ribands, but you’re absolutely right, it is possible.

Edited 20 July by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, Jerry B said:

A stunning lot of RWF photos. 

 

Do the two officer portraits have enough sharpness to discern if they have the griffin or dragon on the collar badges?

With the aid of a loupe, I believe them to be griffins. 

[GWF1967]

Unnamed Royal Welsh Fusiliers. I believe that I have seen the first photograph reproduced elsewhere, does anyone recognise him?

[Jerry B]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Ah, I understand.  You mean you thought it possible the photos might be from after 1920.  I ruled that out given their apparent ages and the absence of WW1 medal ribands, but you’re absolutely right, it is possible.

I have seen the griffins used post 1920 but would like confirmation of the changeover to the dragons.  Do we have a war office date for the change or is it more collector knowledge?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Jerry B said:

I have seen the griffins used post 1920 but would like confirmation of the changeover to the dragons.  Do we have a war office date for the change or is it more collector knowledge?

It’s always the difficulty that old patterns often continue to be used well after changeover, commonly as a matter of pride relating to long service.  As you have implied, a post 1920 date photo could therefore show either, Griffin or Dragon.  I haven’t retained the detailed War Office reference, but I have remembered the year, especially because it meant something special to me.  Both my older brother and I served in the regiment, so we, I especially because of an enduring passion for history, took an interest.

The insignia, both cap and collar badges, changed in 1920.  The regiment also ceased using Griffins in its letter heads and painted unit signs and instead readopted a dragon whose design is based on the Tudor type used in the Arms of the City of London**.  I cannot recall who decided to do that.

The line drawing illustration from ‘Records and Badges’ below dates from 1895.  The blue cover of regimental standing orders from 1910.  Ergo the change in insignia and also the change in spelling of 1920 was merely catching up with what the regiment was already doing.

The officers mess livery from the late 1890s was fastened with silver plated, domed buttons bearing a Griffin with letters in cursive script - R.W.F. - beneath.  Note that the Griffin stands on a Torse.

I hope that this helps convince you.

** that is heraldically correct and aligned with the very first regulations issued for “regimental appointments”, in 1742.

Edited 20 July by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

"Yours very sincerely John.  Lance Corporal, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Barrow in Furness, August 1917"

Wounded Royal Welsh Fusilier in hospital blues. 

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

"Yours very sincerely John.  Lance Corporal, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Barrow in Furness, August 1917"

Wounded Royal Welsh Fusilier in hospital blues. 

A particularly good view of the ‘shoes, canvas’ issued to each man and commonly worn around camp, or in the barrack rooms each evening after duty. 

[tankengine888]

6 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Yours very sincerely John.  Lance Corporal, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, Barrow in Furness, August 1917"

I think he's one of these two:
39549 A/Sgt John Waite Bell, 3rd Garr Btn RWF
46152 L/Cpl John Norman Smith, RWF (Wd Nov 1917)
Both resided in Barrow in Furness

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

I think he's one of these two:
39549 A/Sgt John Waite Bell, 3rd Garr Btn RWF
46152 L/Cpl John Norman Smith, RWF (Wd Nov 1917)
Both resided in Barrow in Furness

Thanks for looking Tank - The 5th (Home Service) Garrison Battalion were stationed around Barrow in Furness and were transferred to the Royal Defence Corps in August 1917, so he may have been getting a photograph taken to remember his last days as a fusilier.  

[tankengine888]

14 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Thanks for looking Tank - The 5th (Home Service) Garrison Battalion were stationed around Barrow in Furness and were transferred to the Royal Defence Corps in August 1917, so he may have been getting a photograph taken to remember his last days as a fusilier.  

Ah, then the search is virtually futile. Nonetheless, it's still a brilliant picture.

Zidane

[GWF1967]

2 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Ah, then the search is virtually futile. 

Zidane

But appreciated nonetheless.  

[Jerry B]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s always the difficulty that old patterns often continue to be used well after changeover, commonly as a matter of pride relating to long service.  As you have implied, a post 1920 date photo could therefore show either, Griffin or Dragon.  I haven’t retained the detailed War Office reference, but I have remembered the year, especially because it meant something special to me.  Both my older brother and I served in the regiment, so we, I especially because of an enduring passion for history, took an interest.

The insignia, both cap and collar badges, changed in 1920.  The regiment also ceased using Griffins in its letter heads and painted unit signs and instead readopted a dragon whose design is based on the Tudor type used in the Arms of the City of London**.  I cannot recall who decided to do that.

The line drawing illustration from ‘Records and Badges’ below dates from 1895.  The blue cover of regimental standing orders from 1910.  Ergo the change in insignia and also the change in spelling of 1920 was merely catching up with what the regiment was already doing.

The officers mess livery from the late 1890s was fastened with silver plated, domed buttons bearing a Griffin with letters in cursive script - R.W.F. - beneath.  Note that the Griffin stands on a Torse.

I hope that this helps convince you.

** that is heraldically correct and aligned with the very first regulations issued for “regimental appointments”, in 1742.

 

 

Froggy, I do not doubt that that was the changeover date officially, but as you show, the design had changed by 1910 so it is possible that the OSD collars also changed by 1910, in use if not yet officially? 

That's why I ask to see the collars to see if we do see the dragon in use pre 1920.

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/07/2024 at 08:49, Jerry B said:

so it is possible that the OSD collars also changed by 1910, in use if not yet officially? 

I don’t believe so Jerry, no.  Changing the print on letterheads and publications that were purchased by the regiment privately is very different to insignia, where any modification has to be sanctioned by the Army authorities so that contracts can be set with suppliers at public expense, even though officers then procure their own badges privately.  This had been the case ever since regiments were cracked down upon for doing their own thing with all change having to be approved by Horse Guards after consultation with the Sovereign, who authorised them by seal and signature**.  I’ve never seen as yet any evidence whatsoever of officers SD bronze collar badges with Tudor pattern dragons before 1920.

According to my copy of Regimental Records volume to 1914, and according to the Appendix II on uniform changes within it, the first pattern of bronzed collar insignia (i.e. the Griffin type##) appeared with the introduction of drab serge service dress for officers in 1902.  The change to the spelling of Welsh to Welch on cap insignia occurred in 1920 and certainly the circumstantial evidence suggests that the Griffin type collar badge was replaced simultaneously (i.e. as one overall insignia modification to be dealt with).  I do have a copy of the Regimental Records volume up to 1945 in storage and I’ll seek it out over the next week or so and report back on what if anything it says in the appendix covering dress for that period, which of course straddles 1920.

** originally done personally, later done by his/her initials (to indicate decision) and the subsequent processing by personal office staff via the dress and clothing committees in the form of sealed patterns.

## a Griffin is not mentioned, but we know that is what it was (erroneously) at the time.  Even the spelling as Welsh is not mentioned, referring instead to Welch (see text below).  However, these are records compiled for publication from original documents that were edited and arranged by the authors Cary and McCance decades after events, and have almost certainly been changed from their original form.

Additionally the photos in the seminal Dress Regulations of 1900 make it clear that the spelling on the badge was Welsh.  Obsolescent (old pattern) badges were not destroyed, but continued to be issued until wasted out (soldiers) or sold (officers - possibly at a discount).

NB.  Griffins are commonly seen on the bullion collar badges first authorised for the roll collar mess dress adopted in 1900, but formally introduced in Dress Regulations of 1904 and can be identified by their upright orientation in relation to a vertical grenade, which matched a similar badge with Griffin (but differing flames) on the ‘round forage cap’ worn by the regiment between 1880 and 1902.  Conversely, on tunic and frock coat a plain silver bullion grenade was worn (the only fusilier regiment to observe this original silver pattern that connected it historically with the artillery from origins when ‘fusiliers’ were specialist escorts to that arm).  The Griffin changed to a Tudor Dragon and the flames of the bullion mess collar grenade were modified to be more similar to the traditional artillery and engineer pattern also used on the cap.  Both, Griffin and Tudor Dragon were described as ‘The Red Dragon’, or just ‘Dragon’ in regulations with no differentiation in pattern mentioned.  Before 1880 the officers cap insignia had been a plain bullion grenade with the numerals 23 beneath and it wasn’t until the Childers reform and linkage with the Militia that the dragon was added to the ball of the grenade.  Prior to that the Prince of Wales’s feathers had been preeminent in the regiment’s insignia for centuries, although the [Tudor] Red Dragon did appear on the regimental colours as one of several badges of the PofW since 1742.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 July by FROGSMILE

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Here is an interesting/amusing one (IWM).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[6RRF]

Yes, very amusing. The sort of picture that ought to have been published in a book of "humorous incidents". The soldier's skeleton kit is interesting 

[Buffnut453]

This is an interesting Rifle Brigade pic, allegedly taken while under fire.  Seems a tad posed and the woodland in the background seems rather pristine for a front-line position (unless it was very early in the War).  I'd appreciate any insights the cognoscenti can provide about the uniforms/equipment on display and estimates of when it might have been taken (if that's even possible from the poor image quality and limited views of uniforms etc).

[poona guard]

Looks like a 1914 photo.

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

This is an interesting Rifle Brigade pic, allegedly taken while under fire.  Seems a tad posed and the woodland in the background seems rather pristine for a front-line position (unless it was very early in the War).  I'd appreciate any insights the cognoscenti can provide about the uniforms/equipment on display and estimates of when it might have been taken (if that's even possible from the poor image quality and limited views of uniforms etc).

It is very early in the war around the late Autumn early Winter 1914, during the early war period of fierce fighting.  Trench headdress was 05 caps and knitted woollen cap comforters** that became increasingly popular headgear as the temperature dropped, but also because they were eminently more practical trench wear than the rather stiff forage caps.

** these were designed as balaclavas that could be rolled up at the end to form a hat and made under contract in Scotland. By the end of the year the first of the iconic ‘Gor Blimey’ trench caps with folding flaps to form ear warmers began to reach the frontline.  From early 1915 they were fairly ubiquitous.

NB.  It looks a lot like Ploegsteert Wood.

images courtesy proprietary search engine.

Edited 24 July by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It is very early in the war around the late Autumn early Winter 1914, during the early war period of fierce fighting.  Trench headdress was 05 caps and knitted woollen cap comforters** that became increasingly popular headgear as the temperature dropped, but also because they were eminently more practical trench wear than the rather stiff forage caps.

** these were designed as balaclavas that could be rolled up at the end to form a hat and made under contract in Scotland. By the end of the year the first of the iconic ‘Gor Blimey’ trench caps with folding flaps to form ear warmers began to reach the frontline.  From early 1915 they were fairly ubiquitous.

NB.  It looks a lot like Ploegsteert Wood.

images courtesy proprietary search engine.

 

Many thanks for those details, @FROGSMILE.  I'm guessing they're probably either 1st or 3rd Battalion men.  

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

 

Many thanks for those details, @FROGSMILE.  I'm guessing they're probably either 1st or 3rd Battalion men.  

Forum member @stiletto_33853 would be best placed to advise I think.

[tankengine888]

7 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

This is an interesting Rifle Brigade pic, allegedly taken while under fire.  Seems a tad posed and the woodland in the background seems rather pristine for a front-line position (unless it was very early in the War).  I'd appreciate any insights the cognoscenti can provide about the uniforms/equipment on display and estimates of when it might have been taken (if that's even possible from the poor image quality and limited views of uniforms etc).

Don't know whether my eyesight is failing, but to me it looks as if the men were cut out and pasted ontop of a 'stock' photo. It looks off to me..

Edited 25 July by tankengine888