Postcards

[Gardenerbill]

6 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Don't know whether my eyesight is failing, but to me it looks as if the men were cut out and pasted ontop of a 'stock' photo. It looks off to me..

I see what you mean but I think the photo has been partially, inaccurately colourised.

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/07/2024 at 09:08, Gardenerbill said:

I see what you mean but I think the photo has been partially, inaccurately colourised.

Yes I think so too.  The men and foreground have been colourised but not the background.  I believe it was a deliberate technique of the time used to create a 3-dimensional appearance and bring the image more alive for the viewer.

Edited 8 August by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

9 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Don't know whether my eyesight is failing, but to me it looks as if the men were cut out and pasted ontop of a 'stock' photo. It looks off to me..

That may be an artifact of the colourization process.  Agree with you, though, that it has a slightly odd appearance.

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/07/2024 at 10:03, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t believe so Jerry, no.  Changing the print on letterheads and publications that were purchased by the regiment privately is very different to insignia, where any modification has to be sanctioned by the Army authorities so that contracts can be set with suppliers at public expense, even though officers then procure their own badges privately.  This had been the case ever since regiments were cracked down upon for doing their own thing with all change having to be approved by Horse Guards after consultation with the Sovereign, who authorised them by seal and signature**.  I’ve never seen as yet any evidence whatsoever of officers SD bronze collar badges with Tudor pattern dragons before 1920.

According to my copy of Regimental Records volume to 1914, and according to the Appendix II on uniform changes within it, the first pattern of bronzed collar insignia (i.e. the Griffin type##) appeared with the introduction of drab serge service dress for officers in 1902.  The change to the spelling of Welsh to Welch on cap insignia occurred in 1920 and certainly the circumstantial evidence suggests that the Griffin type collar badge was replaced simultaneously (i.e. as one overall insignia modification to be dealt with).  I do have a copy of the Regimental Records volume up to 1945 in storage and I’ll seek it out over the next week or so and report back on what if anything it says in the appendix covering dress for that period, which of course straddles 1920.

** originally done personally, later done by his/her initials (to indicate decision) and the subsequent processing by personal office staff via the dress and clothing committees in the form of sealed patterns.

## a Griffin is not mentioned, but we know that is what it was (erroneously) at the time.  Even the spelling as Welsh is not mentioned, referring instead to Welch (see text below).  However, these are records compiled for publication from original documents that were edited and arranged by the authors Cary and McCance decades after events, and have almost certainly been changed from their original form.

Additionally the photos in the seminal Dress Regulations of 1900 make it clear that the spelling on the badge was Welsh.  Obsolescent (old pattern) badges were not destroyed, but continued to be issued until wasted out (soldiers) or sold (officers - possibly at a discount).

NB.  Griffins are commonly seen on the bullion collar badges first authorised for the roll collar mess dress adopted in 1900, but formally introduced in Dress Regulations of 1904 and can be identified by their upright orientation in relation to a vertical grenade, which matched a similar badge with Griffin (but differing flames) on the ‘round forage cap’ worn by the regiment between 1880 and 1902.  Conversely, on tunic and frock coat a plain silver bullion grenade was worn (the only fusilier regiment to observe this original silver pattern that connected it historically with the artillery from origins when ‘fusiliers’ were specialist escorts to that arm).  The Griffin changed to a Tudor Dragon and the flames of the bullion mess collar grenade were modified to be more similar to the traditional artillery and engineer pattern also used on the cap.  Both, Griffin and Tudor Dragon were described as ‘The Red Dragon’, or just ‘Dragon’ in regulations with no differentiation in pattern mentioned.  Before 1880 the officers cap insignia had been a plain bullion grenade with the numerals 23 beneath and it wasn’t until the Childers reform and linkage with the Militia that the dragon was added to the ball of the grenade.  Prior to that the Prince of Wales’s feathers had been preeminent in the regiment’s insignia for centuries, although the [Tudor] Red Dragon did appear on the regimental colours as one of several badges of the PofW since 1742.

 

 

 

 

 

Jerry, as promised I have dug out my copy of Regimental Records Volume V 1918-1945 and extracted the details from the Annex on badges, and unit flags below.  It is the only place where the Griffin and Dragon are mentioned.  Although not explained explicitly the assumption must be that 1921 is the point when the collar badges for officers were changed, as mentioned in relation to the flag, and one year after the change in spelling was approved. 

Edited 2 August by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Army Service Corps  Divisional Ammunition Column. 

The first is a Post Card - "with love from Hubert 25/6/18", the second a Carte Postale taken in France.

[GWF1967]

Rear row, second from right -  Percival Frederick Soper.  B.1885 Southampton.

Pte. 2407  2/5th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment, Territorial Force.  25th September 1914, Shrewton, Salisbury Plain, Wiltshire. 

He must have signed for overseas service with 1/5th Battalion, and left for India in October; Renumbered as 240844.  

T-5-Hants shoulder titles, Marksman and 1st Class Scout badge on display.

[Jerry B]

Royal Engineers Territorial Signal Service

[themonsstar]

Some pictures of members of the Labour Corps.

391 Cpl John Henry Bird. joined the 1/7 Royal Welsh Fusiliers in 1909. He was with the Bn when it landed at Gallipoli around  the 9th August 1915.

He transferred to the Labour Corps around 1917. His LC number 358867 was issued Sept 1917 in Egypt. He was entitled to the 1915 Star, BWM & VM.  The Territorial Efficiency Medal and the Silver War Badge.

Edited 27 July by themonsstar

[themonsstar]

1948 Pte Karl Guilliard joined the 20th County of London Regt. 

Home 14/8/1914 - 8/3/1915.

BEF 9/3/1915 - 26/8/1915.

Home 27/8/1915 - 2/7/1918

BEF 3/8/1918 - 13/2/1919.

He was still with the 20th (CofL) Bn, 31st March 1917, Serving in 5th Company. It was around this time he was posted to the 6th Labour Bn, with the London District Labour Centre. Working at the War Office. After a Travelling Medical Board found him fit to serve overseas, he joined the 33 London Regt (Rifle Brigade). 

 

Edited 27 July by themonsstar

[themonsstar]

A soldier of the Middlesex Regt, standing outside the office of the 78 Labour Company Orderly Room. The 78 Labour Company was formed as the 13th Labour Company, King's Liverpool Regt. It landed in France with 3 Officers & 495 ORs, 14th March 1917.

[themonsstar]

When the Labour Corps was formed, there first cap badge was the General Service Corps cap badge, with the shoulder title LC for Labour Corps. Most soldiers transferred into the Labour Corps, Kept wearing their old regimental cap badge , possibly until the new Cap badge started arriving mid to late 1918. 

In 1939 the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps was raised, the title was shortened to Pioneer Corps In 1940. They become The Royal Pioneer Corps 1946. Choose the old Labour Corps cap badge. 

 

Edited 27 July by themonsstar

[themonsstar]

This is a mixed postcard with Soldiers ( SNCOs) of the Manchester Regt with Labour Corps & members of the Volunteer force.

[aodhdubh]

No indication of date, location, or unit on the back, though I suspect it is September, 1914, in the environs of Halifax, Nova Scotia. Soldiers are armed with Ross rifles, so presumably Canadian Militia. The feathers on the Scottish headdress lead me to surmise Cape Breton Highlanders, though I would have thought North Nova Scotia Highlanders were likelier....I have not been able to work out if they wore feathers. Anyone know?

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/07/2024 at 17:41, themonsstar said:

This is a mixed postcard with Soldiers ( SNCOs) of the Manchester Regt with Labour Corps & members of the Volunteer force.

What a super mix.  As well as the VF, still wearing VTC Norfolk pattern jackets, there’s also a CSMI of the School of Musketry.  Thank you for sharing the image. 

Edited 7 August by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

On 26/07/2024 at 18:43, GWF1967 said:

Army Service Corps  Divisional Ammunition Column. 

The first is a Post Card - "with love from Hubert 25/6/18", the second a Carte Postale taken in France.

Probably 2nd/5th LRB

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Probably 2nd/5th LRB

The cap badges are ASC stars.  Plus no black buttons anywhere.

[gordon92]

10 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

No indication of date, location, or unit on the back, though I suspect it is September, 1914, in the environs of Halifax, Nova Scotia. Soldiers are armed with Ross rifles, so presumably Canadian Militia. The feathers on the Scottish headdress lead me to surmise Cape Breton Highlanders, though I would have thought North Nova Scotia Highlanders were likelier....I have not been able to work out if they wore feathers. Anyone know?

I rather suspect that this photo is later than September 1914 since all the men are wearing Balmoral bonnets and puttees.  A more likely date is Spring 1915 or later. A number of CEF Highland battalions wore feathers in their Balmorals and Tam O'Shanters. These consisted of a brown turkey feather with a colored center. The most likely are the battalions of the Nova Scotia Brigade. These were:

• 85th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) red center
• 185th Battalion (Cape Breton Highlanders) green center
• 193rd Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) blue center
• 219th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) purple center
• 246th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) wore all four colors as they were originally intended as the reinforcement battalion for the Brigade, but it didn't quite work out that way.

There were others who also wore feathers including the 96th Battalion (Canadian Highlanders).

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

Edited 7 August by gordon92

[aodhdubh]

35 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

I rather suspect that this photo is later than September 1914 since all the men are wearing Balmoral bonnets and puttees.  A more likely date is Spring 1915 or later. A number of CEF Highland battalions wore feathers in their Balmorals and Tam O'Shanters. These consisted of a brown turkey feather with a colored center. The most likely are the battalions of the Nova Scotia Brigade. These were:

• 85th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) red center
• 185th Battalion (Cape Breton Highlanders) green center
• 193rd Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) blue center
• 219th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) purple center
• 246th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) wore all four colors as they were originally intended as the reinforcement battalion for the Brigade, but it didn't quite work out that way.

There were others who also wore feathers including the 96th Battalion (Canadian Highlanders).

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

Thank you Mike. That is a great help. It paints a more complex picture, but a much more informed one. Unfortunately, all that is scrawled on the back is "Trench practice. Our rapid fire gun squad". I obtained it with another (not of this unit) that I am confident must have been in Halifax, Nova Scotia, in September, 1914, but there is nothing to indicate the two were taken on the same date or location.

[gordon92]

11 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Thank you Mike. That is a great help. It paints a more complex picture, but a much more informed one. Unfortunately, all that is scrawled on the back is "Trench practice. Our rapid fire gun squad". I obtained it with another (not of this unit) that I am confident must have been in Halifax, Nova Scotia, in September, 1914, but there is nothing to indicate the two were taken on the same date or location.

You are very welcome.

One follow-up point on this image: At least one man appears to be wearing a khaki kilt. If this observation is correct, then it narrows the likely units to the 193rd or the 219th Battalions.

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/07/2024 at 17:35, themonsstar said:

When the Labour Corps was formed, there first cap badge was the General Service Corps cap badge, with the shoulder title LC for Labour Corps. Most soldiers transferred into the Labour Corps, Kept wearing their old regimental cap badge , possibly until the new Cap badge started arriving mid to late 1918. 

In 1939 the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps was raised, the title was shortened to Pioneer Corps In 1940. They become The Royal Pioneer Corps 1946. Choose the old Labour Corps cap badge. 

 

These are some of the best photos of Labour Corps soldiers that I think I’ve ever seen.   The penultimate scene seems to show men from one of the companies stacked with artisans, whom captured with tools in hand, appear to have been perhaps erecting Armstrong huts, one of which can be seen in the background, and another’s sections lieing flat behind them.  The shot somewhere in France seems to me very evocative of the first year of the corps existence, and we get some hint of the corps mixed origins by the fact that some of the men have a regular units p08 webbing and others the p14 emergency leather belt.  Just one has the 1917 soft cap, and the others the p05. A year later and the men would have been ordered to wear respirator bags at all times, and given their cleanliness and lack of equipment, I suspect that the photo was taken not far from their billets (accommodation) in a rear area.  In the photo of a group of three one man still wears the shoulder titles of a Fusilier unit and another the distinctive collar badges of what looks like the Cambridgeshire Regiment TF.  All in all it’s a fantastic mix of super quality high resolution images, thank you very much for sharing them.

Edited 8 August by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

14 hours ago, gordon92 said:

You are very welcome.

One follow-up point on this image: At least one man appears to be wearing a khaki kilt. If this observation is correct, then it narrows the likely units to the 193rd or the 219th Battalions.

Thanks again. You are a great help.

 

Staring more closely at this photograph, the fellow in this cropping appears to be manning a very pale .303" Vickers-Maxim or Vickers machine gun, except I see no spade grips, feed block or other parts that should be obvious, and I wonder if he has a dummy gun?

Edited 8 August by aodhdubh

[CorporalPunishment]

On 08/08/2024 at 07:55, FROGSMILE said:

These are some of the best photos of Labour Corps soldiers that I think I’ve ever seen.   The penultimate scene seems to show men from one of the companies stacked with artisans, whom captured with tools in hand, appear to have been perhaps erecting Armstrong huts, one of which can be seen in the background, and another’s sections lieing flat behind them.  The shot somewhere in France seems to me very evocative of the first year of the corps existence, and we get some hint of the corps mixed origins by the fact that some of the men have a regular units p08 webbing and others the p14 emergency leather belt.  Just one has the 1917 soft cap, and the others the p05. A year later and the men would have been ordered to wear respirator bags at all times, and given their cleanliness and lack of equipment, I suspect that the photo was taken not far from their billets (accommodation) in a rear area.  In the photo of a group of three one man still wears the shoulder titles of a Fusilier unit and another the distinctive collar badges of what looks like the Cambridgeshire Regiment TF.  All in all it’s a fantastic mix of super quality high resolution images, thank you very much for sharing them.

I had some doubts about those collar badges being Cambridgeshire Regiment on account of the broad base parts but the Regimental pattern buttons confirmed they were.        Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I had some doubts about those collar badges being Cambridgeshire Regiment on account of the broad base parts but the Regimental pattern buttons confirmed they were.        Pete.

I wasn’t sure at first either and cross referenced with the Suffolks just in case, as they changed castles a few times relatively close together.  In the end the photo was sufficiently clear that I could make out the widening of the towers at the base and the rounded tops that distinguished the Cambridgeshire’s badge.   As mentioned, the resolution of the images is particularly good.

Edited 9 August by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

On 08/08/2024 at 08:45, aodhdubh said:

Thanks again. You are a great help.

 

Staring more closely at this photograph, the fellow in this cropping appears to be manning a very pale .303" Vickers-Maxim or Vickers machine gun, except I see no spade grips, feed block or other parts that should be obvious, and I wonder if he has a dummy gun?

Aodh,

Yes, the whole scene seems like it is a staged publicity event or a training exercise.

Mike

[max7474]

On 25/07/2024 at 19:05, FROGSMILE said:

Jerry, as promised I have dug out my copy of Regimental Records Volume V 1918-1945 and extracted the details from the Annex on badges, and unit flags below.  It is the only place where the Griffin and Dragon are mentioned.  Although not explained explicitly the assumption must be that 1921 is the point when the collar badges for officers were changed, as mentioned in relation to the flag, and one year after the change in spelling was approved. 

The claim of a WW2 all brass cap badge is odd because there is no record of any all brass economy cap badge for any regiment in any other publication or record I have ever seen.  Likewise I have never seen an example of an all brass Welch regt cap badge.