Postcards

[PRC]

37 minutes ago, Petroc said:

Bill Phillips (surname spelling possibly wrong!) of the North Devon Hussars with wife Lily (wearing an RNDH brooch), Barnstaple, Devon

Assuming the Bill is William, (no matches for Bill Phil* coming up on either the 1911 Census records or in the Devon marriage records) there are a number of matches for a William Philips \ Phillips \ Philps living with a Lily\Lilly\ Lillian in the Devon area on that census - but all in the south of the county. Same with marriages over the ensuing decade - especially in the Plymouth area.

There are however several William Phillips aged 20-45 in the Barnstaple area and who were unmarried. At this point we don't even know if the couple are married - the left hand where she would wear her wedding ring is covered.

There is a MiC for a 1052 Private William Phillips, Royal North Devon Yeomanry. Shown as first landed at Gallipoli 23rd September 1915, although I suspect that might be the date they sailed from the UK. Long, Long Trail shows -

August 1914 : headquarters and B” Squadron in Barnstaple; “A” Squadron in Holsworthy; “C” in South Molton; “D” in Torrington. Under command of the 2nd South Western Mounted Brigade.
October 1915 : dismounted and moved to Gallipoli. Withdrew back to Egypt on 30 December 1915.
February 1916 : Brigade was absorbed into 2nd Dismounted Brigade.
4 January 1917 : merged with Royal 1st Devonshire Yeomanry to form the 16th (Royal 1st Devon and North Devon Yeomanry) Bn, the Devonshire Regiment and came under orders of 229th Brigade in 74th (Yeomanry) Division. Moved to France, landing at Marseilles 7 May 1918.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-north-devon-yeomanry-hussars/

MiC has him as finishing the conflict as 345643 Private Devonshire Regiment. That service number comes from the block allocated to the 16th Battalion, Devonshire Regiment, for the 1917 renumbering.

Could just be a co-incidence. I'm not spotting any surviving service records or appearance in the casualty lists that might have helped rule him in or out.

Is there any more information on the back of the card - were they living in Barnstaple or was the studio in Barnstaple?

Cheers,
Peter

[Petroc]

Peter; thank you so much. Will check with family members...I have a suspicion that your research has ( as is often the case) clarified some familial tales that are rabbit-hole misleading...

[Petroc]

Pete; Nothing on the back of the postcard, but a family member has just messaged to say that they think Bill & Lil we're brother and sister...probably explains alot!

 

[Stereoview Paul]

Bit of an unusual image here - could be pre-war?

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, Stereoview Paul said:

Bit of an unusual image here - could be pre-war?

Scarborough Royal Garrison Artillery in off-white canvas drill suits and ‘Havelock’ cap covers plus what I think are soft soled magazine boots (to avoid sparks).  Sometime between 1890 and 1910 I think.

[Stereoview Paul]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Scarborough Royal Garrison Artillery in off-white canvas drill suits and ‘Havelock’ cap covers plus what I think are soft soled magazine boots (to avoid sparks).  Sometime between 1890 and 1910 I think.

Thank you, I thought they looked a bit too cheerful to be under threat.

[TomWW1]

Very Nice Shot of an RFA Soldier 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, TomWW1 said:

Very Nice Shot of an RFA Soldier 

The uppermost photo is a very nice portrait of a Leicestershire Regiment sergeant wearing a 7-button version of the home service undress, serge frock**.  The lowermost button sat under the waistbelt.  As a sergeant he wears a red worsted sash to mark his status.

** the other version had 5-buttons.

Edited 25 August by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, TomWW1 said:

Very Nice Shot of an RFA Soldier 

Is that a Victory Medal riband - with colours changed by the photographic medium used?

If so very late 1919 or later I believe,

Cheers,
Peter

[TomWW1]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is that a Victory Medal riband - with colours changed by the photographic medium used?

If so very late 1919 or later I believe,

Cheers,
Peter

Hey Peter,

It would appear so. Sadly there is nothing on the back of either of them not even a studio address.

[tankengine888]

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is that a Victory Medal riband - with colours changed by the photographic medium used?

If so very late 1919 or later I believe,

Cheers,
Peter

I think its a BWM rather than VM

[gunnerwalker]

23 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is that a Victory Medal riband - with colours changed by the photographic medium used?

If so very late 1919 or later I believe,

Cheers,
Peter

14 minutes ago, TomWW1 said:

Hey Peter,

It would appear so. Sadly there is nothing on the back of either of them not even a studio address.

Looks more like British War Medal to me. But as far as I’m aware the BWM and VM were always awarded together so strange to see one ribbon worn and not the other either way. Perhaps one of those where the BWM was his sole entitlement?

It also seems to me like it’s worn further to the outside of his pocket than I usually see, so if not the sole entitlement then possibly there are more ribbons before it obscured by the bandolier?

[PRC]

19 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

I think its a BWM rather than VM

19 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

Looks more like British War Medal to me.

You're probably right - I still have a mental block when it comes to working out the tonal shifts brought about by the different films and processing. It may also be a question of shadows - maybe I'm seeing extra bands that aren't actually there. Did a bit of tone shifting myself to produce this comparison image!

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Image of British War Medal and Victory Medal courtesy Wikipedia.

Cheers,
Peter

[WhiteStarLine]

51 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

But as far as I’m aware the BWM and VM were always awarded together so strange to see one ribbon worn and not the other either way. Perhaps one of those where the BWM was his sole entitlement?

There were odd cases like that.  My grandfather joined up the day after war was declared and sailed to Thursday Island, then New Guinea with the Kennedy Regiment.  En-route to Rabaul the stokers mutinied and the regiment returned to Townsville.  They were ineligible for the 1914 Star by 48 hours but were all entitled to the British War Medal.

Later he signed up again and earned the VM on the Western Front.

Edited 25 August by WhiteStarLine
Added service record extract

[Buffnut453]

Here's an example from my family's photos showing just the VM ribbon and no BWM.  Sadly, I don't know who this man is, who's clearly glad to be back home with his daughter.  My Grandad was in the RGA as is this man, so I presume it's a friend of my Grandad's.  My Great-Aunt swore that the man's name was Tommy Orme but, alas, I can't make a solid connection with that name.

Edited 25 August by Buffnut453

[PRC]

12 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

There were odd cases like that. 

Not so odd.

From the Long, Long Trail.
6,610,000 British War Medals were issued.
5,725,000 Victory Medals were issued.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

8 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Here's an example from my family's photos showing just the VM ribbon and no BWM. 

Not aware of any circumstances that would lead to that other than loss - given it might be that the light colours have merged could it potentially be a BWM?

In both cases it could be a question that the pictures were taken in the period between the medal riband being issued for the British War Medal, (August 1919) and early 1920 when the medal riband became available for the Victory Medal.

Cheers,
Peter

[gunnerwalker]

43 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Here's an example from my family's photos showing just the VM ribbon and no BWM.  Sadly, I don't know who this man is, who's clearly glad to be back home with his daughter.  My Grandad was in the RGA as is this man, so I presume it's a friend of my Grandad's.  My Great-Aunt swore that the man's name was Tommy Orme but, alas, I can't make a solid connection with that name.

To me each end of the ribbon is a different tone which would suggest a 14 or 14-15 Star. Not uncommon to see that worn alone in photos from around 1919 or 1920. I believe there was a year or two between the issuing of Stars and BWM/VM.

[gunnerwalker]

53 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

There were odd cases like that.  My grandfather joined up the day after war was declared and sailed to Thursday Island, then New Guinea with the Kennedy Regiment.  En-route to Rabaul the stokers mutinied and the regiment returned to Townsville.  They were ineligible for the 1914 Star by 48 hours but were all entitled to the British War Medal.

Later he signed up again and earned the VM on the Western Front.

From memory there were a few roles or places one could be stationed which meant you were eligible for just the BWM. I think Malta was one and also some parts of India. Very interesting that your grandfather qualified for both via different means.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Here's an example from my family's photos showing just the VM ribbon and no BWM.  Sadly, I don't know who this man is, who's clearly glad to be back home with his daughter.  My Grandad was in the RGA as is this man, so I presume it's a friend of my Grandad's.  My Great-Aunt swore that the man's name was Tommy Orme but, alas, I can't make a solid connection with that name.

An interesting photo.  Although only a Bombardier he’s wearing a privately made jacket in a smoother material than service dress serge.  Notice the scalloped breast pocket flaps.  The medal riband appears to be the 1914-1915 star rather than a VM or BWM.

Edited 25 August by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

They were ineligible for the 1914 Star by 48 hours but were all entitled to the British War Medal.

As far as the Army is concerned, only service in France & Flanders qualified for the 1914 Star. Those serving elsewhere were eligible for the 14/15 Star.

1 hour ago, gunnerwalker said:

I think Malta was one and also some parts of India.

Those whose garrison duty saw them stationed solely in the likes of India, Malta, Gibraltar, Aden and probably other locations would only qualify for the British War Medal. (Empire troops who got to the UK  but no further likewise qualified for the BWM - they too were serving overseas). I don't know if those figures quoted on the LLT included Empire troops, but combine the garrisons in India and those Empire troops who got to the UK but no further, then 800,000+ doesn't seem unlikely.

Not everyone who served with a Battalion on such garrison duty only received the one medal. Some did convoy protection duties against pirates for the shipping heading back and forth between India and Mesopotamia for example, sometimes combined with Prisoner of War escort duties from Mesopotamia to the likes of the Andaman Islands. Landing at Basra and stepping ashore seems to have been enough to qualify them for the Victory Medal.

Many of the troops who went out on Garrison Duty to India in the early months of the War were Territorial Force. Even if they stayed in India for the whole war, by dint of not qualifying for the 1914 or 1914/15 Star they became eligible for the Territorial Force War Medal.

And there were a number of border wars \ conflicts to which British troops were drawn into around the fringes of Inida. Although technically a Theatre of War or sub theatres -see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/medal-roll-theatre-codes/, that seems to have qualified individuals for the General Service Medal \ Indian General Service Medal with the relevant clasps rather than the Victory Medal.

2 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

To me each end of the ribbon is a different tone which would suggest a 14 or 14-15 Star.

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The medal ribbing appears to be the 1914-1915 star rather than a VM or BWM.

I can't get it to scale unfortunately, but here he is with a 1914, 1914/15 Star ribband for comparison.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Ribband courtesy Wikipedia.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, PRC said:

here he is with a 1914, 1914/15 Star ribband for comparison.

Thank you Peter, I think that confirms it’s probably a 1914-15 Star, assuming he was not an Old Contemptible.

Edited 25 August by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

As far as the Army is concerned, only service in France & Flanders qualified for the 1914 Star. Those serving elsewhere were eligible for the 14/15 Star.

Those whose garrison duty saw them stationed solely in the likes of India, Malta, Gibraltar, Aden and probably other locations would only qualify for the British War Medal. (Empire troops who got to the UK  but no further likewise qualified for the BWM - they too were serving overseas). I don't know if those figures quoted on the LLT included Empire troops, but combine the garrisons in India and those Empire troops who got to the UK but no further, then 800,000+ doesn't seem unlikely.

Not everyone who served with a Battalion on such garrison duty only received the one medal. Some did convoy protection duties against pirates for the shipping heading back and forth between India and Mesopotamia for example, sometimes combined with Prisoner of War escort duties from Mesopotamia to the likes of the Andaman Islands. Landing at Basra and stepping ashore seems to have been enough to qualify them for the Victory Medal.

Many of the troops who went out on Garrison Duty to India in the early months of the War were Territorial Force. Even if they stayed in India for the whole war, by dint of not qualifying for the 1914 or 1914/15 Star they became eligible for the Territorial Force War Medal.

And there were a number of border wars \ conflicts to which British troops were drawn into around the fringes of Inida. Although technically a Theatre of War or sub theatres -see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/medal-roll-theatre-codes/, that seems to have qualified individuals for the General Service Medal \ Indian General Service Medal with the relevant clasps rather than the Victory Medal.

I can't get it to scale unfortunately, but here he is with a 1914, 1914/15 Star ribband for comparison.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Ribband courtesy Wikipedia.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Well, don't I feel foolish!  Pretty obvious when it's pointed out.  Clearly a little to much "ready, fire, aim" on my part.

 

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

An interesting photo.  Although only a Bombardier he’s wearing a privately made jacket in a smoother material than service dress serge.  Notice the scalloped breast pocket flaps.  The medal riband appears to be the 1914-1915 star rather than a VM or BWM.

 

Thanks for that detail.  I've started digging through my hometown's AVL and have found 2 possible candidates.  The challenge is that I don't even know if this man is from my hometown.  

 The 2 candidates are Thomas Grundy (47821) and John Green (43285).  I need to do some more digging to see if I can find them in Census records to get a better handle on likely ages to see if they might have had a daughter of the right age to match the little girl in the photo.

I did find 2 other possiblities, a Henry Lewis (53107) and Francis (Frank) Saunders (44765), but both were awarded Military Medals.  I'd have expected the man in my photo to be wearing his MM ribbon with his 1914/15 Star if he had been awarded one.  

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

both were awarded Military Medals.  I'd have expected the man in my photo to be wearing his MM ribbon with his 1914/15 Star if he had been awarded one.

Yes I think they can be ruled out on that basis.

[TomWW1]

Leicester Soldier - Courtesy of Ancestry 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, TomWW1 said:

Leicester Soldier - Courtesy of Ancestry 

No he’s Canadian isn’t he Tom?  See the maple leaf collar badges and the Canadian militia pattern khaki jacket with its 7 close set buttons.

Edited 27 August by FROGSMILE